Posted on 04/12/2011 7:55:27 AM PDT by bkaycee
http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=282
Thanks.
Dr.E. and I argue at length about Baptism, but we always know we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. It's great to see RC's start to understand that for us it's our faith that unites us not membership in a church. We always pray that someday RC's will come to believe in The Gospel and join us.
By way of contrast, in my early years here, before I knew what a Caucus was, I blundered onto a Protestant Caucus thread about whether the teaching on predestination encouraged laziness. I don't subscribe to the popular notion of predestination but I've thought about it for 45+ years, since I read an essay by Sidney Hook when I was 16.
So I posted my thoughts that logically one would be predestined to laziness or industry, and that Spiritually the confidence that God had chosen one for Himself would IMHO tend to give the kind of joy and peace that overflows into works of love.
Note: this is a comment on a doctrine I don't hold. I was thanked for being open to thinking about the idea and advised what a “caucus” was.
I long for, hoped for, that sort of discussion of the central ideas of our faith. But what I found was not just ignorance of Catholic teaching but a positive aversion to learning about it. I found mountains of sophistries. I found terms of abuse. Above all I found a zero-sum-game approach to Christian “fellowship” with people (on either side) all too willing to say others aren't Christian.
This has been one of the nagging riddles and sorrows of my life. I am GLAD I have a splitting headache today after a sleepless night so that perhaps a loving God who, like all good Fathers, shares his work with his sons even when they're terrible at it, will let me offer this blinding ache (which is now fading, praise IHS!) for his children on the RF.
All this, “I belong to Paul,” “I to Apollos,” “I to Christ,” “I to Luther” “I to Darby,” ... We ALL have ample scriptural warning to avoid just this sort of thing.
The question then becomes will we,CAN we “fight for peace”? CAN we just ask one another to shut up, to LISTEN, REALLY listen, (which always implies a certain placing in hock of cherished notions, at least for the duration of the discussion.)
Part of the point of my comparison with Islam is precisely that I have found some Catholics but many, many non-Catholics who seem to think that real conversation with others would be somehow morally contaminating. I feel a little like Francis of Assissi (can't spell) who was allowed to address some Muslim leader (was it Saladin?) because the Muslims thought his fervor meant he was a lunatic and therefore under Allah's protection.
In any event, you have come late to this very unpleasant family. To me, personally, the sophistries, lies, and condemnations are FAR more scandalous than a little juvenile word play. YMMV. But from where I sit, Notwithstanding is acting like a human back board. Just as the non-Catholics have returned my most irenic questions by calling me an idolator outside the Spirit, ntwthstndng gives a ludicrously formulaic denunciation in return for posts by non-Catholics.
Incidentally, I think it is important that the same non-Catholics who earnestly deny meaning any of the abuse and denunciations personally seem very personally wounded by ntwthstndng's posts.
I guess a part of me thinks that ntwthstnding should stand down now. The point has been clearly made. But the response tells me that he whose wrath is great because he knows his time is short is still prince of the RF.
For MY parting zinger: with the exception of some non-Catholics whom I can count on one hand, men and women open to the Love and who seek to enjoy, serve, and glorify him with the constant renewal of their minds, I would see little difference between leaving the Catholic Church and giving myself a lobotomy while snorting meth.
Promises Promises.
After all, the body of Christ is not one part, as Paul, that excellent theologian stated in 1 Corinthians 12. For example, here we see the unity of those who have faith in Christ alone for salvation.....
1 Corinthians 12:1-3
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
And then the distinctions which God has granted the church to prevent if from becoming stagnant of ingrown and ineffective.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
While some people see denominationalism as divisive, since they perform different functions within the body, they serve a purpose. People can affiliate themselves with whatever denomination works best with their gifts and skills.
1 Corinthians 12:12-20 12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
Or perhaps one could say *If the Baptist should say, "Because I am not a Pentecostal, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.*
Or even if the Methodist should say, *Because you're not a Methodist, you're not a part of the body, the Baptist would not cease being part of the body.*
Everyone is accountable to God for their relationship with Him and while if they claim to be Christian and have no fruit to prove it, it's a reasonable conclusion that they are not Christian, the same cannot be said of denominations. Just because someone attends a church that is Pentecostal, or Baptist, or OPC, or whatever, doesn't mean they're not Christian.
Our unity is in faith in Christ alone for salvation as individuals, not the style of worship music we prefer, or if we like to raise our hands during worship or not.
She’s just trying to help, you know.
Concerned for you, and all.
Really wants you to ggve it your best, even if it is voodoo.
Matthew7: 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Another falsehood. If by "RC's" you mean to say Catholics, we already believe in the gospel. Just not in the heretical and myriad self-interpretations so rampant in the cults.
As for joining you (plural), why would we do that, when we have the real deal? The Lord Jesus Christ, Risen Son of the Living Almighty God and Savior of the World, wholly God and wholly man, joins us in the mass every day. Who needs cults/sects/heretics?
I am betting Reggie won’t apologize.
You cannot know the state of mind of the poster/speaker of those words. To make a lame attempt to do so is "mind-reading" and is forbidden on the Religion Forum. Since you (plural) like to stand in for the Religion Mod, perhaps you could admonish yourselves.
Sometimes you have written brilliant and fitting pieces with passion yet without personal pique and rancor.
I haven't found most of your posts on this thread rising to that standard.
As one that raises her hands it worship to God.. I want to say Amen Sister.. Worship is not about us.. it is about God, it is for God.. so the style or type of worship is unimportant ... The important thing is that we praise and thank our God and that His work is expounded like a steak ...real meat that one chews on for days after the service..
INDEED.
1. Cigar night here in town is on Thurdays. I hope you stop by some day. It would be a great time and you would enjoy meeting my friends.
2. What a great post.
3. This is a classic: “With the exception of some non-Catholics whom I can count on one hand, men and women open to the Love and who seek to enjoy, serve, and glorify him with the constant renewal of their minds, I would see little difference between leaving the Catholic Church and giving myself a lobotomy while snorting meth.”
Your sect if filled with bloviating jackasses.
STARTING? it seems to me that "waxing apoplectic" occurred long ago... :D
Sounds a bit like cannibalism, your sect’s practice of eating God like steak.
What is The Gospel that RC's believe?
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
and Acts and Revelation
Only a person from a loony sect would ask.
You are not alone. But it does show what is considered “Christian” today.
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