By way of contrast, in my early years here, before I knew what a Caucus was, I blundered onto a Protestant Caucus thread about whether the teaching on predestination encouraged laziness. I don't subscribe to the popular notion of predestination but I've thought about it for 45+ years, since I read an essay by Sidney Hook when I was 16.
So I posted my thoughts that logically one would be predestined to laziness or industry, and that Spiritually the confidence that God had chosen one for Himself would IMHO tend to give the kind of joy and peace that overflows into works of love.
Note: this is a comment on a doctrine I don't hold. I was thanked for being open to thinking about the idea and advised what a “caucus” was.
I long for, hoped for, that sort of discussion of the central ideas of our faith. But what I found was not just ignorance of Catholic teaching but a positive aversion to learning about it. I found mountains of sophistries. I found terms of abuse. Above all I found a zero-sum-game approach to Christian “fellowship” with people (on either side) all too willing to say others aren't Christian.
This has been one of the nagging riddles and sorrows of my life. I am GLAD I have a splitting headache today after a sleepless night so that perhaps a loving God who, like all good Fathers, shares his work with his sons even when they're terrible at it, will let me offer this blinding ache (which is now fading, praise IHS!) for his children on the RF.
All this, “I belong to Paul,” “I to Apollos,” “I to Christ,” “I to Luther” “I to Darby,” ... We ALL have ample scriptural warning to avoid just this sort of thing.
The question then becomes will we,CAN we “fight for peace”? CAN we just ask one another to shut up, to LISTEN, REALLY listen, (which always implies a certain placing in hock of cherished notions, at least for the duration of the discussion.)
Part of the point of my comparison with Islam is precisely that I have found some Catholics but many, many non-Catholics who seem to think that real conversation with others would be somehow morally contaminating. I feel a little like Francis of Assissi (can't spell) who was allowed to address some Muslim leader (was it Saladin?) because the Muslims thought his fervor meant he was a lunatic and therefore under Allah's protection.
In any event, you have come late to this very unpleasant family. To me, personally, the sophistries, lies, and condemnations are FAR more scandalous than a little juvenile word play. YMMV. But from where I sit, Notwithstanding is acting like a human back board. Just as the non-Catholics have returned my most irenic questions by calling me an idolator outside the Spirit, ntwthstndng gives a ludicrously formulaic denunciation in return for posts by non-Catholics.
Incidentally, I think it is important that the same non-Catholics who earnestly deny meaning any of the abuse and denunciations personally seem very personally wounded by ntwthstndng's posts.
I guess a part of me thinks that ntwthstnding should stand down now. The point has been clearly made. But the response tells me that he whose wrath is great because he knows his time is short is still prince of the RF.
For MY parting zinger: with the exception of some non-Catholics whom I can count on one hand, men and women open to the Love and who seek to enjoy, serve, and glorify him with the constant renewal of their minds, I would see little difference between leaving the Catholic Church and giving myself a lobotomy while snorting meth.
Sometimes you have written brilliant and fitting pieces with passion yet without personal pique and rancor.
I haven't found most of your posts on this thread rising to that standard.
1. Cigar night here in town is on Thurdays. I hope you stop by some day. It would be a great time and you would enjoy meeting my friends.
2. What a great post.
3. This is a classic: “With the exception of some non-Catholics whom I can count on one hand, men and women open to the Love and who seek to enjoy, serve, and glorify him with the constant renewal of their minds, I would see little difference between leaving the Catholic Church and giving myself a lobotomy while snorting meth.”
You: “But the response tells me that he whose wrath is great because he knows his time is short is still prince of the RF.”
One can take this so many ways...
Don’t tease the religion mod...
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Just kidding.