Rob Bell and his new book "Love Wins"
Posted on 03/24/2011 1:59:29 PM PDT by NYer
.- “Love Wins,” a new book by prominent evangelical pastor Rob Bell, was creating controversy weeks before it was released on March 15, for its non-traditional proposals about eternal salvation and God's judgment. Now, Catholic and evangelical voices are calling for clarity in discussing the issues it raises.
Bell's latest work – subtitled “A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived” – was promoted through a video that provocatively asked whether Gandhi, and the majority of the human race, had been eternally condemned by God for their lack of Christian faith.
While the book raises more questions than it answers, some reviewers have interpreted it as an argument for universal salvation, a position most evangelicals would regard as not biblical. Bell also suggests that there could be an opportunity for faith and repentance after death, and that God's condemnation of some individuals may not be final.
The Catholic Church denies the possibility of either post-mortem repentance or a temporary hell, and most Catholic theologians have regarded universal salvation as an impossibility. Pope John Paul II wrote that the “silence of the Church” was “the only appropriate position” on the question of whether any particular person was saved or lost.
Bell also speculates that some non-Christians may reach salvation through a type of implicit or unconscious relationship to Christ. The Catholic Church accepts this notion as a possibility, in instances where individuals have failed to receive the Gospel message by no fault of their own.
John Michael Talbot, a Catholic recording artist with close ties to the evangelical world, told CNA that all Christians must be careful in approaching the subject of death, judgment, and the afterlife – particularly those who rely upon “scripture alone,” without the Church's definitive teaching authority.
Talbot, who left evangelicalism and founded a Franciscan brotherhood, described many contemporary evangelicals as feeling “a hunger for something less legalistic, more mystical and intellectually rich,” than the “rather shallow answers” they are often given in response to questions about salvation and judgment.
But Talbot said Bell, and other like-minded evangelicals, “lack the full set of tools to find those deeper answers” – which Catholics are given through “sacred scripture, apostolic tradition, and the magisterium, or teaching authority, of the church.”
He indicated that Catholic teachings on salvation could provide more definitive answers to the kinds of questions that led Bell to write “Love Wins.”
“Those who have never had the good news of Jesus written on their hearts by the Spirit are only responsible for what they know,” Talbot said, paraphrasing what the Second Vatican Council taught in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.
“Therefore,” he stated, “those who are not Christians may be saved.”
But he pointed out that this possibility “does not negate the need to proclaim that Jesus alone is the fullness of God's revelation to humanity, and opens the doorway to salvation.”
Talbot said that the Catholic understanding of salvation portrays God's character more accurately than the common Evangelical teaching that assumes all non-Christians are damned.
Catholic teaching on salvation, he said, “is like a rich oil painting of Jesus, as compared to a black and white line drawing or even a cartoon. It has the basics found in the line drawing, but with subtle colors, shades, and hues not found in the other approach.”
But Talbot concurred with Bell's evangelical critics in rejecting the notion of universal salvation.
“The mystery of iniquity is that some will actually choose to turn from God for eternity,” he said. “This seems inconceivable to most of us, but scripture and tradition says that some will.”
Dr. Douglas Groothuis, an evangelical philosopher and apologist who teaches at the non-denominational Denver Seminary, gave CNA his perspective on several subjects where Bell takes an unconventional turn in “Love Wins.”
“Some evangelicals hold that while salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, some in the New Covenant era may be saved by Christ without having known of the Gospel as such, if they fulfill certain conditions.” But, Groothuis said, “others deny this.”
Many evangelicals are committed to the principle of salvation by “faith alone,” which teaches that no human act other than believing in Christ has any bearing on one's salvation.
But Groothuis said “most evangelicals” would accept the possibility of God making a “final offer” of salvation to individuals at the threshold of death. Catholic teaching holds that this could occur, although it is impossible to know whether or not it actually happens.
“Love Wins” also contains a passage in which Bell expresses anxiety for the fate of those who die suddenly and unexpectedly, without having become Christians. He indicates that the notion of an immediate and final judgment after death makes God turn from “kind and compassionate” to “cruel and relentless, in the blink of an eye.”
But Groothuis said that this issue of death and judgment required a clearer understanding of God's providence, a subject on which evangelicals largely concur with the Catholic Church.
According to Catholic teaching, God has complete sovereignty over the beginning and end of life, and complete foreknowledge of human decisions. From these principles, it can be inferred that no one dies “before his time,” meaning that all those who die are either prepared to face God and be saved – or else, would never have chosen to be saved even if given additional time.
Groothuis agreed with this traditional understanding of God's providence, and said it could help both evangelicals and Catholics to understand the logic of an irrevocable judgment immediately after death – because, he indicated, every person is either prepared to face the judgment, or would never have prepared themselves in any case.
“God is sovereign over life and death, “ he stated. “Nothing surprises God.”
>>The other a possibility...<<
The other is NOT a possibility. There is only ONE way, to accept Jesus as personal Savior understanding that HE paid for our sins and believing on HIM as Lord and Savior.
Thanks for your reply.
I was taught that Jesus saves, but it’s not up to us to tell Him who or when or where.
Perhaps this includes instances where individuals have failed to receive the Gospel message by no fault of their own.
I’ll answer the question for you. He wouldn’t have told us to “go into all the world”. All are condemned until they hear and believe.
Luke 16:19 - 31
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
So Jesus says ain’t nobody repenting after they are dead. I’ll take Jesus’ word over Rob Bell’s every time.
This is the normal way to spread the Good News, the way the Church was established, grew and still grows.
…if those people who never here of Him would have been saved anyway.
We don't know this one way or the other. We allow that Our Saviour saves whom He saves for His reasons - in all cases.
All are condemned until they hear and believe.
Would it bother you personally if Jesus saved someone who failed to receive the Gospel message by no fault of their own?
Thank you for the post and ping! The Rich Man and Lazarus is one my favorite gospels.
I am familiar with this false teacher, sadly he is popular with some of my friends. Every time I hear of Rob Bell I think of this passage:
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
People like what they perceive to be the positive aspects of Christianity (God loves us, do unto others, etc.) but do not like what they think are negative doctrines (Hell, sin, etc.) so preachers like Rob Bell come along and promote universalism and the masses gobble it up since it fits their own beliefs on the afterlife. As Christians we should have our beliefs fit what the Bible teaches, not twist the Bible to try to make it say what we believe.
silly me. I thought that the "temporary" hell was called purgatory, and that one could not repent after death, but you could repent up to the moment of death. Those who sin from weakness of the body or mind will find more mercy than the arrogant...indeed, the main ones who Christ warned of deserving hell were clergy who misused their offices...
Either way, I doubt any Catholics would worry about a non catholic preacher who decides two thousand years after the fact that Jesus was wrong.
God is just and merciful. He is the definition of both, and we in our present condition are in no position to judge the merits of either.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
Wouldn't bother me...Those folks will be judged by what's in their hearts, even tho they have not heard the Gospel...The Bible is full of all kinds of things we need to know...
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Thanks for your post..
Judge not lest ye be judged.
I thinks it’s best left to God.
Agree.
I am called to the witness stand, not the judge’s bench. He decides who is going where, not me. I refuse to engage in arguments as this.
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