couldn't agree more.

The point of posting LDS authored stories is part of the Proselytizing .

Certainly, when LDS knocks on the door of an "Apostate" they expect objections. Otherwise, why have the Student Manual for Missionaries, in which, they have points and counter points to their non-believers or what could be more accurately called Non-members of the LDS.

In fact, LDS missionaries search out opportunities for conversion in the less educated parts of the world where illiteracy is extremely high. By that, I mean, if one looks at the efforts of LDS in countries south of the American border, you will find illiteracy rates that are in excess of 70%.

There is no point in disputing the numbers. I have been involved in literacy programs for 5 years and the fact is, you can more easily sway someone, with emotion and power of persuasion, who does not read or more importantly cannot read. They have no real ability to study or collect thoughts of reason based on information contained within them or discovered by study. Nothing to study if you can't read, you just take others words for truth.

Where is the proof that LDS efforts and growth at directed at countries with lower illiteracy rates?

10 New Missions to be Created, 14 to be Discontinued

Ireland Dublin Mission, one of the missions in Chicago, and a mission or two in Australia will be discontinued.

New missions include Peru Cuzco, Guatemala, Philipines, Democratic Republic of Congo Lubumbashi and more. All new missions being formed outside the U.S. are in areas that have indisputably high illiteracy rates.

A new mission in St George, Utah will stretch all the way to Farmington, New Mexico and is likely being built to support LDS immigrants to the areas of traditional LDS communities.

However, it is interesting to note the total number of missions worldwide will fall by four from 344 to 340.

Now to the Student Manual for Missionaries and their program for conversion.

President Gordon B. Hinckley explained the importance of the Book of Mormon in relation to the Church and the Bible:
“If the Book of Mormon is true, the Church is true, for the same authority under which this sacred record came to light is present and manifest
among us today. It is a restoration of the Church set up by the Savior in Palestine. It is a restoration of the Church set up by the Savior when he visited
this continent as set forth in this sacred record.

Okay, so the reasoning is the same as defense of the Bible, which unlike Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, etc, has historical proof of certain events and the geography, where the events took place, is undisputed and the Bible is very stark proof of it's own provenance.

Gordon Hinckley continues:

"If the Book of Mormon is true, the Bible is true...."

And yet LDS claims the Bible to be rife with mistakes, lost books or purposely misleading. This while they claim right to the very same scriptures, but maintain interprations of convenience, by way of contrivance.

President Benson also offered inspired counsel regarding how to use the Book of Mormon to respond to objections investigators(read possible converts) may have to the restored truths of the gospel:
“We are to use the Book of Mormon in handling objections to the Church. . . .
“. . . All objections, whether they be on abortion, plural marriage, seventh-day worship, etc., basically hinge on whether Joseph Smith and his successors were and are prophets of God receiving divine revelation.

Here, then, is a procedure to handle most objections through the use of the Book of Mormon.
“First, understand the objection.
“Second, give the answer from revelation.
“Third, show how the correctness of the answer really depends on whether or not we have modern revelation through modern prophets.
“Fourth, explain that whether or not we have modern prophets and revelation really depends on whether the Book of Mormon is true.

So LDS recognizes there are real objections to their faith and to be fair so does Traditional Christianity. Both have plans for conversions with the key difference between the two being as follows:

Church of Christ Latter Day Saints:

Their premise is that most converts come from the foundation of Traditional Christianity, which forms the basis of belief for their doctrine, which is of a slightly different story. They hold that converts are worshipping Apostate Religions and they are the One True Church and therefore the only arbiters of ones future when it comes to eternal salvation.

No reason to look further than where ever you find Christians you will find LDS missionaries teaching a new way of thinking, a new road to salvation and of a superior system that plays to man's innate vanity and hope to be something more, such as deifying oneself through work.

But first they start their premise with unworthiness and shame the Christian into believing they have been had. With no real defense of literacy and learnedness the most important decision in one's life is now called into question.

What will you do? If the Book of Mormon is true and your heart is open to learning it's truth, you can be saved. Bit of a canard and a highly charged emotional question that is a leading question of conscious, heart and spirit.

Traditional Christianity:

Here we find missionaries seeking out converts not from other religions but from souls of sola fide(by faith alone) and those very converts come from areas where God, in the light of Traditional Christianity, are not understood by lost souls nor has the salvation of Jesus Christ reached them yet. Here we can think of China, North Korea, Middle East or Russia where God is a challenge to their authority, especially in the form of Christianity and is therefore outlawed.

The difference in Christianity and Mormonism goes to Sola Fide.

In Sola Fide we find salvation by God's grace and Jesus paying the ultimate sacrafice and the only path to eternal salvation and it is brought to you by faith alone that your pardon is secure, forever, through the gift of God, who recognizes that man could never hope to work his way to heaven or pay for his salvation as he is an imperfect being.

And so "For God so loved the World, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life".

Mormons teach a version of God's greatest gift but if comes with qualifiers. Their belief, in direct contradiction to historical Christian Doctrine, is one must some how become worthy to enter into God's kingdom. How does one become worthy? There is no answer of specific definition, only that you must perform certain works showing your worthiness and that Joseph Smith will be the one who approves your "Passport" to heaven. Yes, they do use the term passport in their doctrine, though one wonders what information should be contained in that passport.

And yet God tells "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" "There is none worthy, No, not one". Seems pretty clear that God didn't even bother so single anyone out just lumped us all into a definition of lesser beings, who has shown great mercy on despite our incredible shortcomings.

Jesus tells us"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". (John 3:4-5)

Paul in his letter to the Ephesians:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” -Ephesians 2:8,9

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” –James 2:19. This presents a huge conflict with Mormon belief that one can become a god, just like God. It doesn't appear God agrees or approves.

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” –James 2:18. So we are being presented with what the effect of faith is and that is: a belief, truly of the heart and spirit, will result in works demonstrating your walk in and with Christ. It will be plainly apparent and motivated by spirit to excersise works of God in daily action or in specific witness of testimony.

Now in the Student Manual for Missionaries, of LDS, on page 77 we find the beginning discussion of Apostacy, in which the LDS begin to lay the foundation for proof of a foul religious belief and that theirs is the one and only true way:

Under the direction of Jesus Christ, the priesthood and the Church were restored through His servants.
The Restoration dispelled the darkness of the Apostasy. Priesthood authority was restored.
Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord organized His Church again upon the earth so that the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel could be correctly administered in order to help people come unto Christ.

President Gordon B. Hinckley also bore witness that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored:
“This is the restored Church of Jesus Christ. . . . We testify that the heavens have been opened, that the curtains have been parted, that God has spoken, and that Jesus Christ has manifested Himself, followed by a bestowal of divine authority.

“Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of this work, and it is built upon a ‘foundation of . . . apostles and prophets’ (Ephesians 2:20)” (in Conference Report,
Oct. 2002, 87; or Ensign, Nov. 2002, 81).

Really? How can Mormons possilby quote scripture from a book that was organized in the fourth century and specifically call out scripture by chapter and verse, even though they have their provenance in other religions, which are antithetical to your belief and an apostacy in the view of LDS?

And now begins the teaching of conversion from other faiths and the superiority of Mormonism with their unique and new scripture:

Elder Robert D. Hales of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that faith is part of the fertile ground that nourishes conversion:
“The first seeds of conversion begin with an awareness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a desire to know the truth concerning His restored Church.
‘Let this desire work in you’ (Alma 32:27). A desire to know the truth is like a seed which grows in the fertile ground of faith, patience, diligence and
long-suffering (see Alma 32:27–41). . . .

The Church of Christ Latter Day Saints makes no pretense as to who their target market is for conversion.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught that conversion requires a complete willingness to give up all practices contrary to the teachings of the restored
gospel:

“The gospel of Jesus Christ challenges us to change. ‘Repent’ is its most frequent message, and repenting means giving up all of our practices—
personal, family, ethnic, and national—that are contrary to the commandments of God. The purpose of the gospel is to transform common
creatures into celestial citizens, and that requires change” (in Conference Report, Oct. 2003, 39; or Ensign, Nov. 2003, 37).

So I could finish a whole dissortation on the subject of specific market converts and what LDS has to say about their doctrine but, suffice to say they are well aware of opposition to their faith and have a plan to counter objections.

Also, we are given specific demands of faith, by LDS, in their writings. So why the opposition to being "called on the carpet" as it were?

I think down deep, many in LDS know there are some real challenges in the history of their formation, by "Apostles" and "Prophets". They also know their founders had some real errors of heart and spirit, such as having several wives and even taking the wives of other men and then having those men officiate or act as witness to their wife being taken by another man.

Talk about losing your way. I mean, what man would accept that god had commanded and ordained another man to take his wife? Where would you scriptural imprimatur for such a thing? No where.

I will expand on this later but that about does it for today.

"Religion is political in all reality, so this discussion is of merit as an opposing scriptural view, and examining the interesting nature of Beck’s “conversion”, which is human. Much in the same way Beck has examined Soros. For biblical Christians both these individuals bear watching."

Hear, hear!

I have no illusions or delusions about his religion.

(Well Beck has plenty of both illusions and delusions about his religion...which makes me ask the question: If a man can be so far off base on what he might label as the most important convictions of his life, how trustworthy is he going to be down the line?)

If his religion can't even get it right as describing such a simple thing as the worldwide Christian religion, which Beck's religion describes as being...
...100% apostate
...100% corrupt (re: professing believers)
...100% creedally abominable...
...then how can we trust Beck's commentary on say, other world religions...like Muslims, for example?

Oh...and for the ignorant who didn't know that Mormonism claims worldwide Christianity to be 100% apostate, 100% corrupt [Joseph Smith's word, not mine], and 100% creedally putrid & dishonorable to the Mormon god...just Google: "Joseph Smith History" and "Pearl of Great Price."

Scroll down to verses 18-20 where Joseph Smith talks about Christian sects, and you'll find that "All...corrupt" and "all...abomination" comments there.

For some who think this was simply a Joseph Smith letter-to-the-editor, think again. A later generation of Mormons called this very foundation of their religion -- the vision of the Mormon unnamed entities appearing to Smith -- "scripture."

True believing Mormons regard this as "Scripture."

Is Beck a TBM? Is Beck a temple Mormon?

I have concluded LDS needs to co-opt, plagiarize and denigrate all of Christianity...

You could well replace LDS with any "false" religion because they all have these traits. Some are more subtle than others and it's not until one, if they have not had scripturally sound teaching, is immersed neck deep that they might recognize that.

The 'Holy Spirit' guides each of the Christians. It's that little 'stirring' in the heart that says "this doesn't seem right" or "this doesn't sound right" that believers must be receptive to and responsive to. Then seeking out the absolute Truth which can only be found the The Holy Scriptures and not in a man's book.

We are to 'try' the spirits and we are not to indulge in or participate in false teachings by man.

In other words; if it ain't in the Bible, it ain't happening.

(Really enjoy your postings Vendome)

And then I found this very interesting:

LDS and RLDS (Community of Christ): Differences & Similarities

By Bill McKeever

In 1844, Joseph Smith, prophet and seer and revelator of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, met an untimely death when he was killed in a gun battle at Carthage Jail in Carthage, Illinois. His early demise left the fledgling church with a political power struggle. Although numerous splinter groups were formed, a large number of Latter-day Saints decided to pledge their allegiance to Brigham Young. In doing so, Young led his followers to the Salt Lake Valley in what is today known as the state of Utah. Today, the LDS Church is the largest of the Latter-day Saint movements.

Joseph Smith's widow, Emma Smith, chose to remain behind with her three children. Many of those who refused to follow Young felt that a descendant of Joseph Smith must become his successor. In June 1852, the "New Organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" held its first conference. Though encouraged to become the head of the church, Joseph Smith III, the oldest of Emma's three sons, refused to do so until 1860 when The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) was formed. He held this position for 54 years. For much of its history the RLDS chose a leader who was related to Joseph Smith (The LDS typically choose the senior member of the Council of the Twelve when there is a vacancy). In 1996 this tradition was broken when W. Grant McMurray became the first president who had no relationship with the Smith family. Under the leadership of McMurray, the name of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was officially changed to the Community of Christ (CofC) at its World Conference in 2000.

Members who belong to the LDS Church in Utah often refer to themselves as being Mormons, an early nickname attributed to the followers of Joseph Smith. Members of the CofC prefer not to be called by this title.

Both groups accept the Book of Mormon as part of its scripture; however, the LDS Church has made numerous "corrections" to their edition which have not been included in the CofC edition.

The LDS Church considers the following four books to be scripture: the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. The CofC has never recognized the Pearl of Great Price and insists that the Book of Abraham contradicts teachings found in the Bible and Book of Mormon.

The LDS Church teaches that God is a glorified, exalted human being and that there was a time in history when God was not God. The CofC espuses a deity who was eternally God and "independent of any external or prior cause" (Some Differences Between the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pg.1).

The LDS Church teaches that there is a myriad of Gods on various worlds. The LDS Godhead is tri-theistic, or composed of three separate and distinct Gods, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. According to its official website, the CofC states, "We affirm the Trinity - God who is a community of three person. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship."

> Both groups believe men will be judged according to their works.

> Both groups hold to baptismal regeneration.

> Both groups believe in an open canon and "present-day revelation."

Whereas only males can hold priesthood authority in the LDS Church, the CofC authorized the ordination of women to the priesthood in 1984.

The LDS Church claims that men are Gods in embryo and that righteous Mormons can become Gods in the next life. The CofC does not teach that men can become Gods.

Utah Mormons believe that in order to become a God, the faithful member must participate in esoteric temple "endowment" ceremonies. The Mormons only allow "worthy" members to enter their temples and participate in its rituals. The CofC owns two buildings called temples (Kirtland, OH and Independence, MO), and both are open to the public. The CofC "rejects the whole system of temple rituals, secret names, signs, oaths, and handshakes which the Church in Utah proclaims are essential to the ultimate salvation of man" (Fundamental Differences, 1960, pg. 230).

Utah Mormonism teaches that marriages performed in LDS temples can continue after death. The CofC teaches that marriage relationships pertain only to mortal life.

The CofC utilizes the symbol of the cross on its buildings, whereas the LDS Church has refused to use this symbol.

During the 19th century, the LDS Church in Utah strongly emphasized the practice of plural marriage as a requirement for exaltation. Although this requirement was officially abolished in 1890 (as a condition for Utah statehood), it is still taught that polygamy will be practiced in the hereafter. "Obviously the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium" (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, pg. 522,523). The CofC has always denounced polygamy although it does not deny that it was practiced. For instance, Robert B. Flanders, on page 209 of his book titled, Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, wrote, "The Nauvoo Temple was the focus of religious innovations which revolutionized Mormonism. Ordinances for the dead, as well as novel and secret ordinances for the living, including marriage for eternity, plural marriage, and other extraordinary familial arrangements, were introduced by Smith and Young in Nauvoo for temple observance."

The LDS Church teaches that deceased persons can embrace Mormonism in the spirit world through "baptism for the dead." The CofC has never condoned such a teaching and does not practice baptism for the dead.

Until 1978, the LDS Church taught that the "Seed of Cain," those of African heritage, could not hold the Mormon priesthood since such people were not valiant enough for the cause of Christ when Lucifer rebelled against God in the "pre-existence." The CofC has never held such a view although Joseph Smith III claimed to have received a revelation which warned his Church to "not be hasty in ordaining men of the Negro race to offices in my church" since "all are not acceptable unto me as servants ..." (Reorganized Doctrine and Covenants 116:4.)

The LDS Church interprets the tithe as 1/10 of one's income, whereas the CofC bases the tithe on 1/10 of one's increase.

Both the LDS and CofC claimed God ordained their organization as the true restoration of fallen Christianity. The LDS Church continues to insist that it alone represents "the only true church" and more closely emulates primitive Christianity. The CofC has come to abandon this notion: "A majority of committee members held that this vision of the nature of the church was inadequate for the church of the present day. It does not conform to our best present understanding of the nature of God as revealed in the gospel of Christ, nor does it allow us to account for the fact that we continually experience the reality of authentic Christian discipleship in people from other traditions. Moreover, our past understanding of earliest Christianity has proved to be historically deficient: there is simply no evidence that a church existed in the first century that looked like ours. Therefore, the belief that we are the restoration of the primitive form of Christianity can no longer be sustained."

Colofornian.. Oh yeah..Roy Masters is a cult.. He wants people to get better and not need him anymore.. That is so cultish! ;)

what’s the name of that manual?

How do I get one?

Topic	Christian	Mormon
GOD	There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5).	"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3).
	God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15).	"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
	God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39).	"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's," (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10). "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
TRINITY	The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three eternal, simultaneous persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.	The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
JESUS	Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23).	"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115). "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
JESUS	Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17).	Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
THE HOLY SPIRIT	The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not a force. He is a person. (Acts 5:3-4; 13:2)	Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God's presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity). "He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144).
SALVATION	Salvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God's grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned (Rom. 11:6).	Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . . "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
SALVATION	Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21).	"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
BIBLE	The inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16). It is authoritative in all subjects it addresses.	"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." (8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church).

This is only a sample of many of the differences between Christianity and Mormonism. As you can see, they are quite different doctrines.

Uh huh....

“I see, said the blind man...........”

“They better be careful.”

You, sir/madam are a little scary ....

Is he talking about an evil Jesus? Sure sounds like that is what you are suggesting.

"disnmissing the subject"

No, I'll tell what I usually do. I dismiss people who think somehow they're God's favorite person, and everybody else who doesn't share their narrow-minded view of things is going to perdition. In short sir, I dismiss you.

I’ll not judge him on his faith. There are plenty of others around here that do just that. Like I said before: I have no illusions or delusions about his religion.

It’s hard to communicate and express oneself fully without being being in person but I did, for 20 years, believe we were of the same yolk and no one ever said a thing to dissuade me.

We have the same holidays, we pray over dinner the same, we pray in times of despair the same and yet we are not the same.

I was saddened to learn this but it’s a fact.

When I had dinner with the Missionary boys last week, a friend decided to ask questions about many of the challenging concepts of LDS.

She was polite but the boys were reticent to answer and so I answered the questions for them, after asking if it was and would they chime if I got it incorrect.

So we had a great conversation and the boys left saying I knew more than they and thanked my for helping with the answers.

I explained to everyone in the room it was okay if we differences in doctrine because our faith in our faith should be strong enough to sustain them and we should be fine with each others’ belief system, while acting as living witnesses for God.

Funny now that I think about it, our dinner was comprised of different faiths: Judaism, Catholicism, Protestant(Baptist) and LDS.

I thought dinner was terrific and everyone felt like they walked away with a better understanding of each others beliefs.

They are coming back next week for dinner.

What does it matter? Good is Good and Evil is Evil. Glenn is Good.

Roy Masters is no more a cult than Jesus and his disciples were according to the Sadducees and Pharisees of his day, if you get my drift my dear and I like Beck too, he's a good man, so does Roy, we cultists got to stick together.....

Heya! :) I was using sarcasm to make a point to Colofornian.

I’m done with O’Reilly. I can’t stand to watch or listen to him any more. Riveria was turned off years ago. I don’t watch Liberal hacks.

Strange that no one else is exposing the enemies within? Anyone have an answer to that multi-million dollar question?

Look to me like Glen(n) Beck is trying to be the white, male, conservative Oprah.

Yep. I've often said that.

10 New Missions to be Created, 14 to be Discontinued

LDS and RLDS (Community of Christ): Differences & Similarities

Topic

Christian

Mormon