Posted on 03/08/2011 10:19:18 AM PST by NYer
Nice, thatnks.
I would submit that we work for the Kingdom because we are Saved not to be Saved.
It is because we are Saved that we are willing to “work” as commanded.
No, I didn’t ignore your post - you are comparing apples to oranges. I don’t think it’s reasonable to compare our situation with Satan’s since he is a fallen angel, but neverless both Adam and Satan did have direct communion with God but were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit as a born again Christian is.
Ephesians 4:30 says “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
The Holy Spirit seals a Christian just as the Bible says.
And I suggest to you that we work to become that new creation. Baptism is our beginning and the work is our process. God could give all that every man needs (see the Garden of Eden) why then do so many have nothing? Why are there poor people in the world despite our efforts to raise them up? Christ said we would always have them... why? Because without the poor, we will never get to exercise charity. Without the lame, we will never get to exercise compassion. This work we do is for Christ's Kingdom, yes... but it is also for us and our own spiritual growth.
Once again, Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is not only sufficient for our salvation... it is so sufficient that it can be replicated in us.
How many good works are enough? How does a person know if they have committed enough good works to become that new creature? Doesn’t working in order to become a new creature directly contradict Ephesians 2:8-9?
No, all have fallen short of the Glory of God and all need forgiveness of sins... even those born again. And if we can still sin, we can still commit the very failures which caused our Fall in the first place. Your position is illogical.
All it takes is small change in perspective... Read Eph 2:4-7... we do not boast in our work and our work is not of our own doing. It is by the work God accomplishes through us that He is building us to maturity in the Spirit (Eph 4). We do not labor to achieve salvation... we labor to discipline our flesh in obedience to the Spirit. From here we will likely launch into a discussion of concupiscence where the fleshly appetites are still weak and we have to be diligent.
You are contradicting yourself and trying to have it both ways. You previously stated, “...Those are the works of a Christian and they are part of our salvation.” Now, you are saying, “We do not labor to achieve salvation....”
So which is it? Is salvation a free gift of grace which is obtained through faith as Ephesians 2 teaches, or is there an additional requirement of human effort on top of Christ’s atonement?
Wrong - and quite arrogant. You do not know the “heart”. God does. God deals with individuals, not “groups”. He saves individually. That’s what concerns me about the RCC. It tells people that as long as they are in the system and do all of these “actions”, they will be saved. Nothing Scriptural about that.
Talents - shared or otherwise - won’t get one into Heaven. Only God’s sacrifice, only His grace has that power.
Exactly right! What arrogance to believe we must “add” something to Christ’s sacrifice because the Almighty isn’t powerful enough to complete the job! Thank God I don’t serve an impotent God!
“No.
We work for the Kingdom because we are Saved by Grace, not to earn Salvation.
When our bodies fail, we have the privilege to join God Almighty for Eternity.”
AMEN and AMEN!! Thank GOD we don’t have to “earn” something we could never earn!! Sin is too powerful a blight in God’s eyes for us in our human flesh to be able to wash that stain away!! It’s why He sent His son.
No, I'm not. Salvation is God's free gift. However, it is a process God is working through us, not a single event. We are still sinners in need of forgiveness and it is ongoing as we live our lives.
Protestants like to tell us that we need to say the "sinner's prayer" and then we are "regenerated" into a new creation and it's "once saved, always saved." If a man should fail, well... he was never really regenerated to begin with. I say that Protestantism is contradicting itself with this view... is it a free gift? If so... why are some not truly gifted?
Rather, Christ didn't command us to say a "sinner's prayer"... He commanded us to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to make men sons and daughters of God. As sons and daughters, God is raising us up to know Him through the works He accomplishes through us. Refusing to cooperate with God is rejecting the salvation He gives.
“The thief didnt need to be born again.”
“Verily, verily I say unto thee: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
Yes, even the thief needed saving. Everyone does. Hence, Christ’s sacrifice.
Added: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that that is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6 - a clear deferentiation between the two.
Also John 3:15 - “That whosoever BELIEVETH in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.”
Here is another distinction between Catholics and Protestants... Protestants see Christ's sacrifice on the Cross as removing all sins... and yet, we still sin. Catholics see it for what it was... the sacrificial offering of the New Covenant. What was lost in Adam's obedience was restored by Christ on the Cross.
Some see Original Sin as a stain on one's soul. How is this stain passed from generation to generation? Beats me. Rather, the Church sees it better as something that was lost... our family relationship with God. In the Creation story, God rested on the seventh day... because He was tired? No. He sealed His creation with a covenant (Shiva--seven). A covenant is a family bond. Adam broke that bond in his disobedience. Just as the neighbor kids can't adopt themselves into my family, so we couldn't reforge that bond with God. Only God could make us family again and He did so by making the New Covenant with Christ as His sacrificial offering.
Original Sin wasn't a stain that was removed, it was a missing bond that was restored.
“...why are some not truly gifted?”
That, my FRiend, is a whole other question and deals with the doctrine of the elect. Better discussed on another thread.
In the meantime, salvation IS a free gift, and no, Protestants don’t say “all you have to do is say the sinner’s prayer”. I don’t know of ANY Protestant who says or has said such a silly thing. Clearly it is God who regenerates the heart. It is God’s work, not ours and nothing we can do to earn it or lose it. He does the work in us. He puts His Spirit into us (hence regeneration). Just because one does an action: be it Baptism, confession, Lord’s Supper/Communion, and yes, even recites the Sinner’s Prayer, doesn’t mean they are saved. God alone can save. We cannot save ourselves or hope to do so.
“The Holy Spirit seals a Christian just as the Bible says.”
AMEN!! And Thank God it is so!
Protestants don’t believe the atonement removed all sin. Instead, Jesus’ sacrifice removed the penalty of sin - that’s a big difference.
Christians have 2 natures. As Paul points out when one is born again, they are filled with the Holy Spirit, but the “old man” or flesh nature is still present in the believer at war with the Holy Spirit. Everyone still sins because we still have the flesh nature within us, which will remain until we get to Heaven.
Well said! The Parable of the Sower is not speaking of believers and those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit when it speaks of those who “fall away”. A careful reading of that passage in context makes that clear.
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