Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Transubstantiation: From Stumbling Block to Cornerstone
The Catholic Thing ^ | 1/21/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 1,501-1,505 next last
To: cotton; Dutchboy88

You guys are posting metaphors. If Christ was really a piece of bread, that would not be a metaphor. I don’t worship a piece of bread.


21 posted on 01/21/2011 2:26:00 PM PST by fish hawk (reporter to old Indian: you lived here on the reservation all your life? Old Indian, "not yet".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: fish hawk; will of the people

You guys are dead on the money.

Otherwise, Jesus is a wooden plank with hinges and every time I turn the knob I am twisting his life? And as will of the people said, he is the growing, tangled mess by my fence and I have been hacking away at Him for years? And He is a guy herding us around a field with a big stick and a border collie? No, my FRiends...you two and several others here are absolutely correct. Jesus meant us to open our ears and listen, and open our eyes and see...if we can. But, just like the guys who thought He was being “literal” said He sounded like a barbarian, some of the FReepers here want to transubstantiate a bunch of flour & grape juice into our risen Lord. And you guys aren’t having any part of such nonsense. I’m with you.


22 posted on 01/21/2011 3:11:58 PM PST by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: fish hawk

Not here. A bit of St. Paul for you, related to this:
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.”
(http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53011.htm)
Why does he say this in this way? Because of the Real Presence.

Likewise, from a source much more eloquent than I:

“The Bible is the unerring word of God. Jesus Christ is the unerring Word of God.

Non-Catholic Christians who see the bread of life discourse in general, and Jesus’ words about “Eating his flesh” in particular, as purely metaphorical; symbolic language used by Christ to represent acceptance of the word of God (the Bible) and the Word of God (Jesus Christ) into our heart as nourishment for our souls, should take note of the verb used for the word “Eat” in the original Greek text.

This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the word. The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” (John 6:50-53)

In quoting Jesus Christ in verses 49 through 53 above, St. John chose to use the Greek verb phago. The lexicon at the Protestant bible study site Heartlight’s Search God’s Word defines the word phago as:
to eat
to eat (consume) a thing
When we get to verse 54 however, the author of the Fourth Gospel switches from using phago to the verb trogo. The word trogo is found five times in the Fourth Gospel and only once elsewhere in the New Testament. Trogo is used for all but once for the remainder of the bread of life discourse to describe what Jesus tells us must be done in order for us to have life within us. The same Greek lexicon referenced above defines the word trogo as:
to gnaw, crunch, chew raw vegetables or fruits (as nuts, almonds)
to eat
The Greek interlinear bible at Scripture 4 All shows the actual Greek words and the literal translation. It does a far better job at conveying the verb change from eat to chew than I can in this post. A PDF file showing the original Greek text for John 6 is available here.

Whoever eats (trogo-chews) my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats (trogo-chews) my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate (ephagon-eat, past tense) and still died, whoever eats (trogo-chews) this bread will live forever. (John 6:54-58)

While it could be argued that the verbs eat (phago) was a metaphor, simply a symbolic reference to spiritual nourishment received by consuming the word of God (bible) and accepting the Word of God (Jesus) into one’s heart, it is hard to argue the same for passages where the word chew or gnaw (trogo) are used. In quoting the Word of God, the unerring word of God seems to be pretty clear.”

(http://timhollingworth.blogspot.com/2010/08/eating-and-chewing-word-of-god-and-word.html)

There are, to be sure, metaphors in the Holy Bible. John 6, in these verses, do not contain one. I understand if you do not believe as we do. That is your choice, not mine. And I can live with that, just as you can. My task, here & now, was simply to try to explain, for your benefit, and others. By the way, sorry about being so long-winded.


23 posted on 01/21/2011 3:23:04 PM PST by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
And you know that they believed it how?

Try 1 Cor 10 & 11, especially 10:16 and 11:27. Or John 6. Or reflect on the Passover seder, where you had to eat the lamb to be spared -- eating a lamb cookie and thinking about the lamb wouldn't get the job done. Or try reading Ignatius, who learned everything he knew from Peter, Paul, and John. Or reflect on the simple historical fact that every Christian church with a verifiable history before AD 1200 believes what we do. All the Orthodox do. All the Oriental Orthodox do. All the Assyrians do.

24 posted on 01/21/2011 3:44:22 PM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: sayuncledave

I’m sorry for you. Christ is “in me” all the time not just at Communion. He is in you also but you have to wait til Communion time evidently before you realize it.


25 posted on 01/21/2011 3:46:49 PM PST by fish hawk (reporter to old Indian: you lived here on the reservation all your life? Old Indian, "not yet".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: sayuncledave

I write this with all sincerity...

Did the disciples start literally eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood at the end of John 6?

Did they eat his flesh and drink his blood at the Last Supper? Matthew 26 Mark 14, Luke 22

If there was no cannibalism, its a metaphor.

The New Covenant is ratified and sealed by the blood of Jesus (see the last Supper verses cited above). Jesus is glorified sitting on the throne at the right hand of God. He has given us the Holy Spirit and made us righteous by faith (Romans 5; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21). We are now children of God, new creations, a royal priesthood, joint heirs with Christ, and his ambassadors (2 Corinthians 5:17-21, 6:17-18; Galatians 4:4-6; 1 John 3:2; Revelations 1:4-6). What else could we possibly gain by consuming his PHYSICAL body and blood at this point?

The Lord’s Supper is for remembrance. To rightly discern and remember all that we have been freely given under the New Covenant. Our focus should be on the spiritual (the Word, which is Jesus and goes into our spirit), not the physical bread and wine that simply go into the stomach and out into the sewer. (Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23)

Jesus died once for all time. See Hebrews 10:11-18. Assuming transubstantion were true, you would be sacrificing Christ again and again as under the old covenant, which is not scriptural. Jesus is in heaven waiting until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. He is not physically returning to earth every Sunday in a shot glass and a piece of bread.

If you are born again, you have something even better, Jesus lives in you through the Holy Spirit. You want Jesus in your heart (spirit), not your stomach.


26 posted on 01/21/2011 3:53:22 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Kandy Atz
Kudos for such clear exposition. May I add that Jesus was confirming for His disciples that He is the Priest Forever after the order of Melchizedek for He tells them He is the bread and His blood is the wine which was brought to Abraham. Because we have this Great High Priest forever, we do not need to crucify anew The Lord from Heaven, we have our nature nailed with Him on His cross and are confrimed by His resurrection, so we need not actually repeat that reality daily, He has done it once forever and entered into the Holy of Holies. Jesus Himself told the disciples 'do this in remembrance of Me'.
27 posted on 01/21/2011 4:01:54 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: sayuncledave

Well, you are half right. You are quoting the Bible %100. The problem is you are interpreting wrong.


28 posted on 01/21/2011 4:10:19 PM PST by fish hawk (reporter to old Indian: you lived here on the reservation all your life? Old Indian, "not yet".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Kandy Atz

Dear Kandy Atz,
the Church does not take it as a metaphor. That was what fish hawk was disputing. I’ve been rather long-winded here tonight, so here is the single best explanation I can think of, for you. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church at the Vatican, and is, for me as a Catholic, the final word.

(http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm)

I believe it as surely as I know my name, and as surely as I respect your opinion, which apparently disagrees with my belief. You might reread my statements, which are scriptural, given that they are direct quotes from the Holy Bible. It is my sincere hope that you will take a moment to follow the link and see for yourself, exactly what we believe. I will add that we who are Catholics are born anew in water and spirit, when we are baptized, but that’s a subject for another day. I wish you well on your journey, and will simply say, God bless, and Good night.


29 posted on 01/21/2011 4:28:46 PM PST by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7

I guess the author could be called a “failed Protestant”.


30 posted on 01/21/2011 5:09:32 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: fish hawk; RnMomof7
Do Catholics really know what a metaphor is?

They HAVE to because they really do must see that what they put into their mouths at Mass is not literal human flesh and blood. They use words like "accident" and "transubstantiation" to describe a substance that still never physically changes yet spiritually does to their minds.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if Catholics or others want to think of the bread of communion in this way. What I stridently disagree with is the dogma that goes along with it that curses with eternal hell all who do NOT believe as they do and that insists that when we receive Christ by grace through faith it is not enough and anyone who claims to be a Christian MUST receive the "Eucharist" in order to obtain "grace". Eucharist meant thanksgiving in the early church and they came together to share in a love feast and when they took the bread and wine and passed it around they were doing it in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice for them. This is what Jesus actually said to do at that last supper with his disciples.

31 posted on 01/21/2011 5:27:24 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: DManA

Ah....but Jesus HIMSELF, said to “Take this Bread and eat it, this is MY BODY”....etc.....so don’t follow Jesus’s own words at your peril.


32 posted on 01/21/2011 5:52:22 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion......the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: fish hawk

Jesus spoke in Parables....NOT metaphors......not EVER metaphors.


33 posted on 01/21/2011 5:53:23 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion......the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7

Oh geesh, not this again. Please....go about your Protestant religion and we will NOT say anything about what you believe in, but leave Catholics and what we believe alone...PLEASE....go take care of your 7 children which GOD has Blessed you with.


34 posted on 01/21/2011 5:55:57 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion......the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

AMEN...AMEN...AMEN!!!!


35 posted on 01/21/2011 5:57:57 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion......the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Ann Archy
So “living Waters” “ Israel the fig tree” “I am the vine” “Knock and it shall be opened” “ I am the Shepard, you are the sheep”, and on and on are not metaphors. Do you have a dictionary at your house. You are getting really close to asinine here.
36 posted on 01/21/2011 6:21:32 PM PST by fish hawk (reporter to old Indian: you lived here on the reservation all your life? Old Indian, "not yet".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: sayuncledave
Do those who partake of the Eucharist die? Do their bodies die? ... It is their spirit which is 'fed' with the body and blood of Jesus The Christ. Did the hebrews eating manna in the desert die? Jesus was making his point thatthere is a profound difference in the body and the spirit. Jesus offers His body and blood as Spiritual food, not literal cannibalism. He told His disciples to take and eat the bread and drink the wine in REMEMBRANCE of Him, not to digest His flesh and blood. Now if God has a spiritual way to transmogrify the wheat product and the grape product into SPIRITUAL substance, then God does that. But a man with a special robe, bland wafers, and a pretty gobblet with derivative from grapes doesn't do it. The love feast was practiced in homes of believers before there was even a Catholic Church of Priests and Churches. The Eucharistic feast is a catholic remembrance of Jesus sacrificing His body and blood for our Atonement.
37 posted on 01/21/2011 6:26:56 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Ann Archy; RnMomof7; marsh-mellow
Oh geesh, not this again. Please....go about your Protestant religion and we will NOT say anything about what you believe in, but leave Catholics and what we believe alone...PLEASE....go take care of your 7 children which GOD has Blessed you with.

You need to take your disgust about non-Catholics posting their opinions on an OPEN religion forum topic out on the person who chose to post it that way. Just so you understand, when one does it this way, they are inviting opposing views. Perhaps you need to stay on the Caucus threads to be more comfortable.

38 posted on 01/21/2011 6:28:20 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
FYI.

Oh geesh, not this again. Please....go about your Protestant religion and we will NOT say anything about what you believe in, but leave Catholics and what we believe alone...PLEASE....go take care of your 7 children which GOD has Blessed you with.

You need to take your disgust about non-Catholics posting their opinions on an OPEN religion forum topic out on the person who chose to post it that way. Just so you understand, when one does it this way, they are inviting opposing views. Perhaps you need to stay on the Caucus threads to be more comfortable.

39 posted on 01/21/2011 6:29:32 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

The legalism of the RCC astounds me.


40 posted on 01/21/2011 8:31:16 PM PST by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 1,501-1,505 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson