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To: MHGinTN; kosta50; Alamo-Girl

Change requires time. A creator has to change from its state of not doing something to its state of doing it, in order to create. Thus, creation requires time, and puts the creator i the realm of time. Thus, the creator isn’t a timeless entity.

This is a very simple argument, and should not strain anyone, to understand.

Your argument that a creator can do as it pleases is meaningless in this context, as it clearly cannot create change in its state without having time tracing the change in the state of the creator - which is something that you yourself implicitly agreed with, earlier, when you mentioned that change requires time.


754 posted on 01/22/2011 12:02:35 PM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
The Creator is not within the limits He establishes until He chooses to step inside those limits, as in The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

You continue to try and define Creator as 'temporally limited'. I just don't accept that for it would make GOD The Creator dependent upon things. We who are within the limits of time and space can only create something using 'things'. The uncaused cause of the universe of limits is by my definition outside of the limits He creates.

755 posted on 01/22/2011 12:08:32 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: James C. Bennett
If you refuse to see that the following assertion by you is a circular argument posed to eliminate the possibility you don't want to acknowledge, then we will have a very difficult time going any further. It is the exact same methodology used by Dawkins int he vbideo you linked, if that helps you to see it:

Your argument that a creator can do as it pleases is meaningless in this context, as it clearly cannot create change in its state (you assertion/assumption posed as axiomatic to the definition you want to refute) without having time tracing the change in the state of the creator (you complete the circle so your mind does not have to contemplate the obverse)

I am not asserting The Creator has create change in His state, you are. And it is upon that horn that you hang the rest of your refutation. You nor I can conceive of an entire physical universe being created without diminishing --or if you prefer, changing-- the Creator of this 'thing'. But I offer that loving does not diminish one, though because the act of loving takes place in time and space it does change one. But The Creator is not in time and space as Creator. As Jesus, God is in time and space. As Holy Spirit, God is interacting with time and space. But you assume this means The Creator is changed when Creating, and it is with that very assertion that I differ: Change to you and me is a temporally limited quality, but The Creator Created the temporal limits from a 'position' outside of dimension time.

If you start with the assumption that a cause must have a cause or it is not nor ever has been, what are you immediately doing? ... You are setting the definitional limits using temporal qualification which you want to be in order to reject that which you do not want to accept.

757 posted on 01/22/2011 12:22:20 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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