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To: Gargantua
Jesus didn't tell him, "My Father picked you, but not that guy hanging next to you." The reason why Jesus didn't say that is because that wasn't what happened. This man elected to have faith in Jesus. He did no "work", he merely had faith in Christ, that Jesus was who He claimed to be. That's all it takes..

Actually, the Bible is filled with the teaching of predestination/election. What Calvinism teaches is actually Double predestination, which is not supported in the Bible. I would challenge any to find a passage where the Lord says he has chosen some for damnation.

As you rightly quoted John 3:16, all who believe will be saved.

If a person is saved, it means God has chosen him and given him grace. If a person is lost, it means that the person has resisted God's grace (Romans 8:29,30).

2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Ephesians 1:4-6 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.<

Ephesians 2:8 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

John 15:16 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name

Predestination is a deep teaching. We try to reason that if God elected some for eternal life, than he must have elected some for eternal damnation. But scripture is very clear that God wants all to be saved. Truth is God has not made known the mystery of predestination and our human minds cannot use logic to explain it.

But it is a profound teaching in which it shows God loves us so much, he has done everything for us. For a believer in Christ this is the ultimate comfort because I know my salvation does not rely on me, a lowly sinner.

Here is a great quote from Martin Luther in regards to predestination:

"God has given men reason so that they can milk cows, bridle horses, and know that a hundred gulden are more than ten. Show your wisdom there; be a master and a good helper; use your knowledge. But here, when it come to the question how we are to be saved, in heavenly matters and matters of faith, stop your reason, keep still, listen and say: Here I can no longer operate; this is different from the matters related above. Curb your reason, therefore, and say: I do not understand this; I will not figure or measure it but will keep still and listen, for it is beyond my measuring and is incomprehensible to reason.

Predestination/election is spoken of extensively by the Apostle Paul in Romans 8 & 9 and Ephesians 1.

Sorry for such a long post, but I feel this is an extremely important part of scripture, which can bring great comfort to believers, despite our not being able to comprehend it fully.

God Bless

87 posted on 01/15/2011 7:50:58 AM PST by Vegasrugrat
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To: Vegasrugrat
All that you posted is true, unless you think that those scriptures were intended to mean only those of Faith. God chose all mankind to be His children, and gave that same gift to all of us. It is nonetheless true that only those who (metaphorically speaking) "open that door when Jesus knocks" who actually receive this gift that God gave to all of us.

When God made man it was that we should all be His children, He chose us, over the animals, over the angels, to be His children. All of us. The smaller number who, after "The Fall," have received Christ's gift through Faith are not the only ones to whom God offers this gift, nor are we alone "the elect" as God makes this offer to all mankind.

That is the difference between the Truth of Scripture's teaching, and the Calvinist twist which would make the "saved" somehow special. We are just as vile a pack of sinners as are those who have not Faith. We are merely saved because of our Faith. Anyone who says otherwise makes a liar out of Christ, and diminishes what He accomplished on the cross.

149 posted on 01/15/2011 11:54:33 AM PST by Gargantua (Palin ~ Bachmann 2012... just call it "Pa-Bach!" (AKA "Liberal Head Cemtex"))
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To: Vegasrugrat
Actually, the Bible is filled with the teaching of predestination/election. What Calvinism teaches is actually Double predestination

Really. You mention "Romans 8 & 9" but you missed:

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

Maybe you have a creative definition of "prepared for destruction" in the context of the Potter and Clay analogy

Maybe you missed the classic proof-text of the Double Predestination crowd:

1 Peter 2:8 They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Then we also have...

Jude 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have even our LORD speaking directly about the matter:

Matthew 23:31-34 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Salvation was not available to them says our LORD. That can only mean that they were appointed to Perdition.

227 posted on 01/16/2011 7:05:27 PM PST by The Theophilus
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