[xzins]

I didn’t deny the contribution of Whitfield, I simply said that his version died out. As you point out, it did.

I also said that I lean in his direction in my interpretation of the Methodist movement...but in terms of the absolute foreknowledge of God.

I am still unable to overcome the hurdle of God foreseeing someone exercise their own choice and using that as the basis for His choosing them. It puts the cart before the horse....you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you. I simply move that event back a step into the time before God created into God’s editing the future time.

FWIW, I admit that. Nonetheless, I’ll continue chewing on it until I figure it out by the Grace of Almighty God...whose I am.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

In other words....8~)

If God perceives even the slightest "free will" goodness in us that He Himself did not ordain and animate by the Holy Spirit alone, then there is something in men that is worthy of their own boasting, thus making grace a payment for giving God something He didn't already have and something He stood a chance of actually not already possessing as His own.

A "free" gift is the hardest one to accept. We prefer gifts that we think we're deserving of, that are given to us as a result of our own abilities, efforts and attitudes, that reflect our status as worthy of being given a gift in the first place.

But that's not grace. Grace is unearned. Unmerited. Undeserved. We "deserve" condemnation yet somehow God has chosen us to receive mercy. And mercy comes with no strings attached; no pre-qualifications. God is merciful to us because of who HE is, not because of who WE are. Mercy for mercy's sake.

`Tis not that I did choose thee,
For, Lord that could not be;
This heart would still refuse thee,
Hadst thou not chosen me.
Thou from the sin that stained me
hast cleansed and set me free;
Of old thou hast ordained me,
that I should live to thee.

`Twas sov'reign mercy called me
and taught my op'ning mind;
The world had else enthralled me,
to heav'nly glories blind.
My heart owns none before thee,
for thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love thee,
Thou must have loved me first."
Josiah Conder

"There is nothing of which it is more difficult to convince men than that the providence of God governs this world." -- Calvin, Isaiah I:406,407

[Cronos]

Xzins: "I am still unable to overcome the hurdle of God foreseeing someone exercise their own choice and using that as the basis for His choosing them. It puts the cart before the horse....you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you. I simply move that event back a step into the time before God created into God’s editing the future time."

Perhaps if you don't think of God doing this before time, rather outside of time?

The way I see it, we exist on a timeline ---A--------------B--.

A and B are events in time, along this strict line. A happened before B in the timeline. But yet, God exists outside this timeline, so to him, the timeline is like the line turned 90 degrees to the plane of the screen -- a dot in which A and B merge, so the ultimate one, everything is an eternal NOW.

I’ll continue chewing on it until I figure it out by the Grace of Almighty God...whose I am. valid -- so do we all. God be with us on our journey.