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To: Cronos
Here's an extract from the Preservation... chapter 17 (heavy read!)...

Ooooooo....doggy. You Catholics sure do have a way of making things complicated. How about this.

If a person is truly saved they will continue. If they are not truly saved then it's clear that they are not "of us". That seems rather straight forward with perseverance.

This is illustrated in Preservation... chapter 19 although foreknowledge may exist without predestination; because God foreknew by predestination those things which He was about to do, whence it was said, He made those things that shall be. Isaiah 45:11 Moreover, He is able to foreknow even those things which He does not Himself do—as all sins whatever

I hate to repeat this mismash but this is a good illustration of the misuse of "foreknowledge". Here is a good read:


2,297 posted on 01/31/2011 11:08:20 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
You are the one who asked for Augustine's proof from Augustine's last work -- I gave it to you and it shows that Augustine did not have Calvin's errors of double-predestination. Augustine also believed that one can lose one's salvation.

For Biblical proof, refer

Ezekiel 33:11-17
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—


15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.

16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just.

18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so.

20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”
Or 1 Timothy 2:4 which states that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Note also [1 Timothy 4:10] God is "the Savior of all men, especially those who believe."

Or refer to Augustine's earlier works:


Augustine
"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).
Remember also that Augustine rejected any notion of an invisible Church and believed in sacraments (Augustine too believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist)

Calvinists believe that Calvin corrected Luther and Augustine. The Restoration had guys like Ellen G White, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Adventists etc. who corrected the Reformers.

Foreknowledge
===============

Remember God is out side of space and time. He exists in the eternal NOW. God sees what is past, present, and future for us as one time NOW. This is quite differently from willfully pre-damning a person
2,303 posted on 01/31/2011 11:46:59 AM PST by Cronos
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