The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[ReformedBeckite]

Most and many theologians believe in the later date of Revelation only because they have been told it is a fact, like you've been told Revelation was written in the 90's or later and it is a fact. Does a majority of people make something true, no it doesn't. There is a small minority of people that believe Irenaeus statement or statements are taken out of context or misquoted or Irenaeus made unknowingly false statements, I can't remember how their arguments go but they sound pretty good to me. These same people believe that Revelation was written several years pre AD70., I hold to that belief and will continual to hold to that belief until some one can show me differently.

Never the less to base one's theology or his foundation of his theology on what the church fathers said is bad theology, good theology stands on it's own outside of what the church fathers said.

Use of the church fathers statements to further argue your beliefs, but don't use them to build your foundational beliefs, use them after your foundational beliefs are founded. I remember studying the seventh day Adventist arguments for the Sat worship from a historical point of view, they quoted several old church fathers from several early centuries to get their point across, I was convinced they were right, shortly after I shown differently, that they had misquoted the Church fathers and taken them out of context. That work that shown me differently was Walter Martin's book "The Kingdom of the cults" Now whether the Seventh day Adventist quote the church fathers correctly or incorrectly is beside the point that I really want to make, and that is if you can't argue your premillennialism view point outside of quoteing church fathers you have already failed in your theology or your search for the truth. Foundation Premillennialism needs to be built on the scripture it self, not church father statements. Same goes for the Postmillennial view point.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words.

[presently no screen name]

Typical of you Quix, topcat54 theology must be a threat to your theology,

News Alert!! NO ONE is a threat to God's Word!

it's your altitude that I really don't like.

What makes you think anyone gives a flip about what/who you like? New rules - All posts according to what ReformedBeckite likes. How liberal.

talk some sense into Quix and tone him down.

Perhaps someone can talk about your 'control' issues - more liberalism.

ROCK ON, Quix! Some want to rob you of your God-given freedom. Liberalism.

[Quix]

QUITE SO.

QUITE SO.

[StayoutdaBushesWay]

“as in the days of Noah......” the ark was a type of the Church ( the Body of Christ ) and all that are to be saved are in the ark.

Agree.
But you lost me on the following:

all the animals represent all nations and tongues to be brought in. lots of false teaching out there, especially the "pre-trib rapture"

I believe in pre-trib, but to call it false teaching is unfounded! Pre, mid, late, it's just a matter of opinion. There is NO right or wrong for either argument, as it's all speculation. If you were taught mid or late then that's your belief, but I can't be as bold to speculate that you are receiving "false teaching"! Btw, Noah's Ark is in line with why I believe in pre-trib.

[Quix]

Am deeply humbled and blessed by your kind words.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.

We—all on earth; all in Creation become broken ON THE WORD OF GOD

or crushed under it.

[StayoutdaBushesWay]

“as in the days of Noah......” the ark was a type of the Church ( the Body of Christ ) and all that are to be saved are in the ark.

Agree.
But you lost me on the following:

all the animals represent all nations and tongues to be brought in. lots of false teaching out there, especially the "pre-trib rapture"

I believe in pre-trib, but to call it false teaching is unfounded! Pre, mid, late, it's just a matter of opinion. There is NO right or wrong for either argument, as it's all speculation. If you were taught mid or late then that's your belief, but I can't be as bold to speculate that you are receiving "false teaching"! Btw, Noah's Ark is in line with why I believe in pre-trib.

[Joya]

YOU said, ‘it’s your altitude that I really don’t like’

= = =
What do you have against people who live a mile high?

[Quix]

You are a persistent treasure.

Actually, I failed to note . . .

I like living at my ALtitude! LOL.

Living at a mile high on the NM high desert could be a very life-saving thing in the future!

[Just mythoughts]

John set the time frame as to what he saw in Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, “’I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, and what thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Aisa: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.”

I do not read the ‘day of the LORD’ as being a Sunday morning worship service. The reference to this is a specific particular time that is a dispensation of time. The so called ‘old’ is filled with references to ‘in that day’, ‘on that day’, and ‘day of the LORD’. The Bible is not nearly as disjointed as so many down through the ages have tried to make it appear.

[CynicalBear]

Irenaeus studied under Polycarp who was John’s deciple. Why would he have been off by more then 20 years? Surely we can use his recollection more then we can trust speculation.

Here is the quote from his book.

Irenaeus
Against Heresies
Book 5, Chapter 30, Paragraph 3

We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.

Titus Flavius Domitianus was Roman Emperor from 81 to 96. Domitian was the third and last emperor of the Flavian dynasty.

Proves that Irenaeus claimed that John wrote the book of Revelation toward the end of Domitians reign which would have been in the 90s long after 70AD.

[Quix]

AGREED.

[ReformedBeckite]

Irenaeus studied under Pollycarp who was John’s desciple.

So you hold what Irenaeus said to be on equal with the Scriptures, how do you know that Irenaeus knew what he was talking about. How do you know he didn't misquote Pollycarp or add to what Pollycarp said, How do you not know he was senile when he wrote what he said. How do you not know that Pollycarp hasn't been mistranslated or misquoted down the line. To boldly say that the preterist theology is absolutely incorrect because of what some one has said Irenaeus said is bad foundational theology. Most people would say Revelation was written post AD 70 because their study Bible says so, well I've got several study Bibles and they sure don't agree on every thing especially in the commentary part.A lot of them will say in their initial statement that a majority of theologians believe that Revelation was written post AD 70 but if you read on most of them will also say that their is a minority of theologians that believe and hold that Revelation was written pre AD 70. But either way if one has to build their theology on commentaries and what some one else says, it is standing on a pretty shaky foundation.

[Quix]

THANKS MUCH.

Imho, the REPLACEMENTARIANS

have as much of a rubberized ‘Bible’ and ‘history’ as most RC’s.

It’s really incredible to see bright people fooled by such nonsense.

[CynicalBear]

>> the point that I really want to make, and that is if you can’t argue your premillennialism view point outside of quoteing church fathers you have already failed in your theology or your search for the truth.<<

The theology isn’t based on the quotes of church fathers. In this case I am using Irenaeus statement of when Revelation was written to prove that John’s prophecy was written after 70AD which destroys Preterist interpretation of Revelation.

[Quix]

The theology isn’t based on the quotes of church fathers. In this case I am using Irenaeus statement of when Revelation was written to prove that John’s prophecy was written after 70AD which destroys Preterist interpretation of Revelation.

---

INDEED.

[presently no screen name]

My altitude is high on The Lord. ;) Some may not like that either.

[Quix]

Interesting . . .

What silliness.

Sometimes it seem like the vast bulk of REPLACEMENTARIANS

—majored in minors;
—minored in majors;
—got Phd’s in obtuseness, absurdity or irrationality as a life philosophy

etc. etc. etc.

OF COURSE MY THEOLOGY COMES FROM SCRIPTURE. PERIOD.

I believe the historical record about John’s authorship of Revelation is highly likely to be correct.

I realize that REPLACEMENTARIANS are as addicted to shucking and jiving and slipping and sliding all around facts, Scripture and history to justify their absurd notions about eschatology.

[ReformedBeckite]

So how good of you, you can quote at least two sentences of Irenaeus.

I'm sure you got that quote from your vast library of mult-volumes of the Church fathers, rather then a book written by your favorite premill author or your favorite premill web site. < /s>

[presently no screen name]

OF COURSE MY THEOLOGY COMES FROM SCRIPTURE. PERIOD.

AMEN!!!

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also".

John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."