Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
I'd suggest you go back through this discussion, especially the discussion with Alamo-Girl and where kosta was pinged which is where I stuck my nose in. Contrary to the historical teachings of the Church, many Catholics today, like the Orthodox, no longer believe the scriptures to be the actual infallible, inerrant word of God. Instead they believe it all embodied in the Church. Their claim is that we no longer have the original manuscripts. What worst, they'll present the arguments many atheists/agnostics present to discredit the scriptures.
If you think I'm being harsh, I would recommend you follow objectively many of the arguments Catholics will present about God's word on this site. Why would they do this? Anything that takes away authority from Rome is a threat. If scriptures is the only thing that is infallible, then EVERY OTHER WRITING IS FALLIBLE. That includes every creed of man, every Church dogma, etc. They all could be suspect. The only way you can determine the truth is by going back to that which is infallible. That is why the Bible must be discredited; to preserve the authority of the Church. This is sooooooo contrary to the teachings of the fathers.
You might as well just toss out the Bible. People in the Church will tell you what to believe.
Thankfully, none of the beliefs you listed involves a person's salvation.
Men are free to read the Bible and believe a variety of eschatalogical perspectives. It makes for interesting dialogue between Christians.
But eschatalogy does not determine whether or not a man will be saved and go to heaven (much to the disappointment of many Roman Catholic apologists who seek to divide the body of Christ rather than edify it.)
Far more serious to a man's eternal well-being are the papist teachings of praying to Mary as a "co-redeemer" and believing its priests are "another Christ." Those foul errors are total idolatry. Nothing else. And those given eyes to see know this and flee from it.
Likewise, it shames the cross of Christ to believe His one-time, perfect, completed sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save His sheep. It reveals a real lack of faith in Christ and God's promises.
And to believe fallible old men and their traditions are the equal if not superior to the word of God is blasphemy for it denies God's own instruction and Christ's teaching.
The list goes on and on. Rome's bloody history reveals its true intent - domination over all men. That is not the intent of Protestant churches who know that only God gives ears to hear and that real liberty is only achieved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And so we preach the Gospel to all men. We don't desire a return to the Inquisition, as several Roman Catholics have called for on this forum.
Please note that the excerpts from the OPC website you quote are written by one man; not a magisterium. A particular perspective on the end times is not a requirement for salvation. If you want to learn what Presbyterians believe, read the WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH or the HEIDELBERG CATECHISM.
But here's the part that must really unglue the Roman Catholic apologist who seeks to stir up division as if all disagreements equaled the unparalleled idolatry of Rome...
Those two confessions are denominational distinctives. IMO they are Scriptural and bring the believer into a right alignment with God's word.
Other true Christians are free to differ about a lot of what is written there, according to their God-given conscience. As has been said many times, most of us Protestants could sit in a pew of most Protestant churches and gratefully join with the congregation in worshiping the God of our merciful salvation with gratitude and joy.
I, personally, could not say that about a Roman Catholic mass. I am repelled by the alter which is turned away from the congregation. I am put off by the glitz and gold and fluttering cherubs which seek to take my mind off the risen Christ. I decry the lack of a sound sermon based on the word of God alone, which is the very reason we meet in church in the first place. And most of all, I cannot sit and watch men attempt to perform pagan alchemy on the Lord's Supper. It's all I can do not to rise up, like Cromwell, and knock the table over (which, in heels, would definitely end up with me in a cast.) Who needs the aggravation?
Therefore, without these glaring, anti-Scriptural insults to the church of Christ on earth, it's not so difficult for most Protestants, knowing full well that only God knows the heart, to look beyond the various distinctions in most Protestant churches to discern whether or not a man has true faith in Jesus Christ ALONE as revealed by the fruits of the Holy Spirit in his life. If a man kneels to the stock of a tree, prays to images of dead men, considers a "co-redeemer" as intrinsic to their salvation, believes they are led by "another Christ," and has no real confidence in Christ's finished work on the cross, then we are not foolish to view that attitude with skepticism and disdain.
OTOH, if a man displays a heartfelt belief in Jesus Christ as his ONLY Savior, King, Redeemer and God, then Christ's particular, transforming directive has been fulfilled...
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
The rest of the Christian religion will be accrued according to that person's sanctification, a long and steady walk towards Paradise, God willing.
And finally, one of the greatest errors of the church in Rome is that it literally denies the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's sheep. Instead Rome says the Holy Spirit works on the church, which then in turn works on its members. By arrogantly inserting itself between God and men, Rome effectively denies the personal, individual work of the Holy Spirit within us.
This error was one of the hallmarks of the Reformation - Rome cannot usurp the role of the Holy Spirit, try as it might.
"Faith is a steady and certain knowledge of the Divine benevolence towards us, which, being founded on the truth of the gratuitous promise in Christ, is both revealed to our minds and confirmed to our hearts, by the Holy Spirit." - John Calvin, Inst. III.ii.7
And since I'm partial to Calvin's perspective, let me conclude this effort with this from him...
"Rome's whole doctrine contains nothing else than big words and bombast, because it is inconsistent with the majesty of Scripture, the efficacy of the Spirit, the gravity of the prophets, and the sincerity of the apostles. It is an absolute profanation of real theology." - Calvin, Past. Epp. 174
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’Or 1 Timothy 2:4 which states that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—
15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.
16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just.
18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so.
20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”
"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).Remember also that Augustine rejected any notion of an invisible Church and believed in sacraments (Augustine too believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist)
He attended Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia
No, I reject your man made religion...Jesus put me into His REAL church the second I got saved...
OPC attacks. This is from the OPC Q&A site It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.This states clearly that the OPC wishes to believe that the sending of the Holy Spirit is UNREPEATABLE |
Some more OPC attacks on those who believe in the Rapture tooI think that it is wrong to hold (with the Premillennialists) that, from chapter 4:1 on, Revelation is all future. |
And the OPC says this about those who deny the non-scriptural double-predestination, God pre-damns people idea of the followers of Calvin. Hence they condemn followers of Christ like Methodists/Pentecostals etc. here is a quote from their siteArminianism is indeed a heresy,.... |
So, Dr. Eck, as an OPCer, do you believe that Arminianism is indeed a heresy,.... |
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Finally, since this thread is about the Rapture, here's what the OPC thinks about it and non-Calvinists taken from the OPC's website where it attacks those who believe in the Rapture too Question: Do you believe the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture? Will the believers in Christ be taken out of this world while the unbelievers are "left behind" to endure the final tribulations before the last day of this world? And will those unbelievers "left behind" have a last chance to repent? |
We is given by sad little folks who are enraged that their “church” is made up of just themselves as everyone else thinks it’s for loons.
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]andChapter XV: Of Repentence unto Life
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7] IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only
I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,[1] the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the Gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.[2]In fact, in Chapter XVI : Of Good Works he writes
II. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God,[3] purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments.[4]
III. Although repentance is not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,[5] which is the act of God's free grace in Christ,[6] yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.[7]
IV. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation;[8] so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.[9]
V. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.[10]
VI. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof;[11] upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;[12] so he that scandelizeth his brother, or the Church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended;[13] who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him
. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith:[3] and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,[4] strengthen their assurance,[5] edify their brethren,[6] adorn the profession of the Gospel,[7] stop the mouths of the adversaries,[8] and glorify God,[9] whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,[10] that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.<["strenghten their assurance"? No double predestination in this, sorry.
From Chapter III, God's Eternal Decree...
VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]
Men are not condemned for their innocence, but for their guilt. Why God gives some men grace and withholds it from others is not ours to know. It is enough to know that Scripture tells us, as Paul's reference above indicates, that He alone determines who is named to His family for His own good reasons. Therefore, men cannot boast; all glory to God alone.
lolol. “Serious errors” in eschatology do not equal the foul idolatry of Rome.
You lose.
Keep it up. I appreciate the links to the OPC website where all men can read and decide for themselves if the Scriptural truth is preached there.
First, we Christians are to follow God Himself - not angels, mortals, organizations, etc.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – I John 1:15
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5
And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23
If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.
Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does.
So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
It would also entail rejoicing in mercy, immersing ourselves in it because He wants it:
But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. – Matthew 12:7
Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matthew 5:7
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. – Revelation 21:1-7
These books [of the canon] the Church holds to be sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author (De Fide Catholica 2:7).We have rejected any form of limited inerrancy. This is repeated in VII
it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully, and without error that truth that God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation
You can re-post any of your idiotic comments all day long and we will STILL not rise to the bait.
It’s clear Rome has no rebuttal to the sound preaching of the Gospel.
So it litters these threads with diversions.
FAIL
It's not really a choice is it? Choosing between all good and all bad is not a choice. If there is no choice there is no free will decision either. Your argument is only a disguised Pascal Wager's argument, which says to the effect: might as well believe just to be on the safe side.
No one sane will consciously choose all bad when there is all good to choose as well. Your argument fails. You are Calvinist and your Calvinist religion says that God predestined everyone, before they even existed, whether they will believe or not.
Therefore, here too, your argument of freely choosing Christ falls flat on its face, logically speaking; in other words, the decision was made for you.
Christianity says that faith is salvation and only God can save. Therefore only God can give you faith if he wants to see you saved. You do nothing. You don't give yourself faith; you don;t save yourself by it; you don't earn it. So, where is the "free" choice?
If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.
AMEN!
And it takes a while to understand that. Real love is doing what we don't particularly want to do but we do it because it makes the other person happy. It's over-coming "self" which is not the natural inclination of men, but its rewards are evident in our relationship with our families and with God.
We love, not because of who we are, but because of who the beloved is.
Loving God would entail wanting all of the fruits of the Spirit because He wants them: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
It would also entail rejoicing in mercy, immersing ourselves in it because He wants it:
And it would entail wanting to be rid of everything that is an abomination to Him – whether in the world around us or in ourselves.
AMEN!
The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies." -- Psalm 18:1-3 "I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.
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