Posted on 12/29/2010 11:41:03 AM PST by markomalley
This is a re-post of a previous blog but it warrants repeating. From time to time I get non-Catholics who read the blog and invite me to read their blogs in the hopes I will decide to convert. They believe they are being obedient to "preach the gospel in season and out." The presupposition with some of these individuals is that Catholicism is a false religion or a "false gospel" . The fact that a person would believe Catholicism is false clearly indicates that they have never studied what Catholicism is all about from a Catholic perspective. It is easy to draw a caricature of what Catholicism is based on myths, lies, distortions. After all, this has been going on for the past 500 years and the purveyors of falsehood have had an abundant amount of time to perfect their attacks.
What I can tell you is that when a person begins to read what the Church actually says about itself and its doctrines, the scales often fall from their eyes and the Holy Spirit brings them Home. I was one of those.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this): "Constantine must have been the real source of the Catholic Church's teachings because after his reign the Church grew tremendously, and before his reign it wasn't as well-known" (Ignores the simple fact that Constantine merely stopped the persecution of Christians with the Edict of Milan and allowed Christianity to spread. It also ignores the writings of the Church Fathers who lived before Constantine -- and who were Catholic.)
Straw man: "You guys worship statues, and that's evil. Therefore, your religion is Satanic." (Ignores that fact that we don't worship statues)
(comes From FISHEATERS WEBSITE)
Don’t pick at the scab.
It's comical to watch Catholics pull scripture out of a hat to try to justify what they claim they believe...
Of course John didn't say that...You twisted the Holy Scripture to line up with what your religion wants you to believe...
But just for the record, post, just once, what John passed on to someone that there wasn't room in the bible for...Just once...
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
The statement accused of being a Straw Man: Did you ever ask yourself why you hate Catholicism so much?
What is hate?
Hate (verb)
1: to feel extreme enmity toward
2: to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful
Therefore, one must ask: is this a "straw man"?
The author of the OP was not addressing FReeper Wintertime, FReeper Metmom, or FReeper rnmomof7. I'm rather confident that he has no idea who FReepers Wintertime, Metmom, or rnmomof7 are.
Nor am I accusing you three of hating Catholicism. Based upon your history of posting on FR, I recognize that none of you feel extreme enmity toward Catholicism nor do any of you three have a strong aversion toward Catholicism or things Catholic. I realize that all of you three basically feel a fondness toward Catholicism but just have disagreements with a few points of Catholic doctrine. (Note: the above judgments are based upon your posting histories and do not attempt to read what is in your hearts)
But, at the same time, you must admit that there are some voices on the Internet who have expressed an extreme enmity toward Catholicism and some voices on the Internet who have expressed a strong aversion toward Catholicism. There are some who believe that Catholicism preaches "another Jesus" (2 Cor 11:4) and another Gospel (Gal 1:8-9). There are some who have expressed a desire to see the Catholic church destroyed. There are some, in fact, who have expressed that the Catholic Church is actively working in concert with the Devil to bring about the ruin of peoples' souls. Not any of you three, but you surely must admit that those opinions are out there.
Could it be that it is to those voices whom the author is addressing the question, Did you ever ask yourself why you hate Catholicism so much?
This would, in fact, be a straw man argument if there were no such presence on the Internet. But there is. The actual logical fallacy here is being committed by you three. (a false syllogism)
I will accept your assertion if you can substantiate that there are no voices on the Internet who have expressed an extreme enmity or strong aversion toward the Catholic Church. But it is going to be very hard for you to prove a negative like that.
But if you would like to try, I'm all ears...
You wrote:
“LOL!! And FR is a conservative site.”
It is. Thanks for proving my point.
“GOD’S WORD REIGNS - it ALWAYS was and ALWAYS will be.”
Which changes nothing I said since everything I said was true.
“It’s all about JESUS, The Word and not about Catholics hurt feelings. The cry of liberalism.”
The only crying Liberal is you. If it’s all about Jesus and His Word, then that includes the Church since He founded it. Attack the Church and you attack Christ.
You wrote:
“Bible scripture is the Word of God so they are one and the same. God = Bible Scripture.”
Exactly - and the same is true for Sacred Tradition.
“This is the concept that Catholics do not understand nor do the majority believe,”
Clearly you’re wrong.
“but...there are some within who look beyond and believe.”
You probably have no idea where people look or what they believe since that would take the reading of hearts - which you can’t do - and you don’t seem to show any special knowledge of much of anything in your posts.
You wrote:
“Some of Jesus’ biggest conflicts with the Pharisees was over tradition. He had nothing good to say about it.”
We’re not talking about Jews, Pharisees or Jewish traditions which nullified the Word of God. Your point is no point at all. I realize that you’re an anti-Catholic and therefore have great difficulty making an argument - anti-Catholics often are very poor thinkers - but even you should realize there are no Jews or Pharisees involved here and you’re not Jesus. You do realize that, right?
You wrote:
” However, to be honest, I just could never get past my negative feelings that I have about the priests.”
Thanks for admitting to your sickness.
“I feel most priests are people that hide in the church to battle their own demons.”
Your feelings do not match reality.
“They are trusted to give marriage and family counseling, but never could understand the joy and/or challenges of having a family.”
Really? How do you know? Are they not from families? Do they not have parents, siblings, do they not spend hours and hours listening to the problems and concerns and joys of couples, widows, widowers, mothers, fathers, children, the lonely, the sick, the imprisoned? Your comment is simply ignorant.
“Many years ago my fathers friend bought an old seminary. (I think that’s what it was called) I was given an after school job to help clean up during the renovations. I won’t even tell you the sick things we found hiding in the walls, attic, basement, and floorboards. It will stay with me forever.”
Please tell us. I have no reason to believe you anyway. Quite frankly I have seen and heard anti-Catholics make stuff up for a decade now and I just learned to never trust them. They lie. One anti-Catholic insisted his uncle told him that he had done construction work in a Los Angeles parish in the 1950s where there were people chained up in the basement as slaves. Of course, gee, he never reported to the police. Imagine that. The story was clearly made up nonsense.
“However, I will tell you that I must of pulled out hundreds of empty liquor bottles that were found in every nook and cranny in that huge old building.”
Oh, no! Not alcohol! Oh, how terrible. Christ and the Apostles drank and were accused of being drunk no less (which they never were). There’s nothing wrong with alcohol in itself.
“I wouldn’t even want to be in the same room with these men, and I sure would never look to them for spiritual advise.”
Your ignorance is your own.
Here is that history.
Jesus told the Jews who believed him, “If you abide in my Word, you are my disciples indeed.” Not “in my Word and in the traditions of the church.”
In his high priestly prayer he said to his Father, “Your Word is truth.” Not “your Word plus something else.”
WRONG! Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
The Hail Mary, traditionally known as the Ave Maria, is a Biblical prayer. In the first half, the words are directly from the Gospel of St. Luke, while the second half reflects what this could mean to us, praying Christians in the Body of Christ, pondering these things in our hearts.
The account of the angel Gabriel announcing to Mary that she is to be the mother of our Savior is familiar to all Christians. We find here the first elements of the Ave Maria. The angel’s words are "Hail, O favored one," (Luke 1:28 RSV), or as Jerome translated it in his 4th century Latin edition, "full of grace."
What does it mean to be greeted as one "full of grace"? At the very least, Mary is highly favored by having been chosen to bear the Son of the Most High. The Latin translation using "full" points to the overflowing abundance and perfection involved. God Himself will dwell in her womb, the Creator will come into the world. The Holy Spirit will overshadow and dwell in her. It is all of grace. By this grace, Mary is special and blessed. The Church’s reflections over the centuries have their root in these words of the angel Gabriel, sent from God. She teaches us to look to Mary for our model of what we ourselves hope to become by God’s fullness of grace.
Mary, and we too, have the next words of the angel to assure us of His help in this. "The Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). How many times in salvation history have servants of God heard these words? In Genesis 26:24, the Lord appears to Isaac, saying, "Fear not, for I am with you". The Lord God promises to be with Jacob (Gen. 31:3), with Moses (Exod. 3:12), with Joshua (Joshua 1:5), and with Gideon (Judges 6:16). Jesus Himself tells his accusers, "He who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him"(John 8:29). The Lord will be with Paul in the city where He has many people (Acts 18:10). This is His promise to the Church in Matthew 28:20, "I am with you always." And in Revelation 21:3, a great voice tells us, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them and they shall be his people and God himself will be with them." The Lord is with Mary, according to the angel, and we know He is with us. His assistance in the Old Testament has been brought to great fulfillment by His very presence with Mary in her womb. "The Lord is with you," has been a pregnant phrase throughout salvation history. And now in the Church, His real presence is with us in His Eucharist.
"Blessed art thou among women," says the prayer, in the words of Elizabeth (Luke 1:42). All the promises of blessing in the Old Testament are fulfilled with the coming of the Savior. Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, continues, "and blessed is the fruit of your womb". Mary is blessed because of her child, Son of the Most High. Elizabeth recognizes this, saying in astonishment, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43). Both Mary and Elizabeth are pregnant miraculously, by the grace of God, emphasizing to us that our life in God is all of grace, all by His willing and doing. We, too, are totally dependent on His grace, His mighty acts, his fulfilling of promises. In the Incarnation, Mary is blessed to have the God of the universe dwell in her womb. In the Church, we are graced to receive in the Eucharist His presence, His very body, the fruit of Mary’s womb.
The scriptural first half of the prayer ends with the name of Jesus (Luke 1:31). We are told in Acts that "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Mary rejoices in God her Savior, and all generations shall call her blessed. Like Mary, we are to rejoice in God’s salvation through Jesus. Like Mary, we are blessed in the Son of the Most High. And like her, we are to be conformed to his image. "For those whom He foreknew, He also pre destined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the first-born among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Catholics believe that Mary’s sinlessness is due only and completely to the grace of her Savior, her Son. She did not earn this great privilege, but was prepared by His saving grace to shine as a promise of what we will be, when "we shall be like Him" (1John 3:2).
The second half of the prayer is a prayer of the Body of Christ, His Church. "Holy Mary," we pray. When we call anyone or any thing holy, it is because of its relationship to God, who is "Holy, holy, holy" (Isaiah 6:3, Rev. 4:8). Vessels for the temple were considered holy because they were set aside for sacred use. We call the Bible the "Holy Bible," because it is the word of God. People become holy when they become close to God. Mary listened to the angel’s message, and she answered humbly, "Let it be to me according to your word" (Luke 1:38). She carried Jesus in her womb and gave birth to Him, she nursed Him and lived side by side with Him. Her holiness comes from her relationship to God. She responded freely and with total faith, giving herself completely to God. "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38). Her obedience of faith (cf. Rom. 16:25) made her holy. Her nearness to her Son made her holy. Our nearness and obedience to Her Son is to make us holy. "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written ‘You shall be holy because I am holy’" (1 Peter 1:14-16).
Mary can rightly be called holy, but what about addressing a prayer to her? As members of the communion of saints, we often ask fellow believers here on earth to pray for us. Catholic faith sees that those who have gone before us are nonetheless truly alive in Christ, "... who died for us, so that whether we wake or sleep, we might live with Him" (1 Th. 5:10). Therefore, it is appropriate to ask for their prayers, also. When we ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us, we are not offering them worship. "Praying to" the saints means asking them to pray for us, not worshipping them as divine.
So we pray, "Holy Mary, Mother of God." Mary’s title, Mother of God, does not mean she existed before God and brought Him into existence; it does not mean He is dependent upon her. The title grew out of the Church’s struggle against the Arian heresy in the fourth century. The Arians denied that Jesus was God. The Council of Ephesus in A.D. 431 declared that Mary was the "God-bearer" (Theotokos) as a way of teaching that Jesus was truly God. They intended to teach about Jesus, but they also taught about Mary. Jesus is truly God. If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then she is the mother of God. He is one person, and she is His mother, and so she is the mother of God. In this way, Jesus is recognized as both Son of God and Son of Man. The Reformers also accepted this title of Mary, for example in the Lutheran Formula of Concord (1577).
"Pray for us sinners." Here we come back to the issue of praying to saints. We, saints and sinners, are all in this Body of Christ together, whether we are living or "dead," because we all are united in Christ by the same Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit made us saints, and also perfected our brothers and sisters, the Saints in heaven. Although we seem to be separated by both space and time, in Him we are united as members of Christ. There is no big difference between asking a breathing saint beside us to pray for us, and asking St. Francis de Sales or Mary to pray for us. We are all in Christ. He is alive, and we are all alive in Him.
Protestants are not accustomed to addressing anyone but God in prayer. That’s why, at first, praying to saints seems idolatrous, even when a Catholic explains that we are really just asking—to pray means to ask—we are asking the saints to pray FOR us. Catholics know Mary is not God. She is not the Savior. She is not the one Mediator. Jesus is the only Mediator we need; we can always approach Him. He loves us tenderly. He also loves Mary tenderly. She is, like each of us, a member of His Church, embodying for all of us the prayerful posture, "Let it be to me according to your word" (Luke 1:38). She is a living example to us of receiving all the grace He desires to give us. She stands with us, in the Church, receiving grace upon grace. She also stands as our example of how powerful the grace of Christ is.
"Now and at the hour of our death. Amen." This is God’s eternal now, in which our deaths, too, are present to Him. In Catholic faith, the communion of saints includes all the members of the Body, past, present, and future (to us) who are being built together by Him into a holy temple (cf. Eph.2:22), our prayers for one another being an aspect of each part working properly (cf. Eph.4:16). The prayers of Mary and the saints are certainly to be counted among those of the righteous, which we always need (cf. James 5:16).
The first half of the Hail Mary, then, is directly from Scripture. The second half is simply putting into practice what Scripture teaches about our life in the Body of Christ, which is His Church. As we pray this beautiful prayer, may we behold the glory of the Lord in his presence with us and, like Mary, be "changed into his likeness, from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit" (2Cor 3:18).
Well, Popes aren't bound by canon law in the first place, so that is irrelevant. Nevertheless:
It is sufficient to say here, that Sixtus IV., in 1476, definitely connected the payment of money with indulgences, and legislated that, by fixed sums paid to the papal collectors, persons on earth may redeem their kindred in purgatory. Thus for gold and silver the most inveterate criminal might secure the deliverance of a father or mother from purgatorial pain, and neither contrition nor confession were required in the transaction.1759 Lea, III. 595 sq., and the instructions of Albert, abp. of Mainz, quoted by Brieger, nec opus est, quod contribuentes pro animabus in capsam sint corde contriti et ore confessi.You have a PhD in history and you don't know that in 1517 Pope Leo X (who spent money like Obama) offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome?
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc5.ii.xvi.vii.html
In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm<
Do you controvert the fact that in 1517 Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome?
Cordially,
http://ninevehscrossing.com/index.php
A BREAK THROUGH DIALOGUE “Common Ground: What Protestants and Catholics Can Learn From Each Other” is the name of the dialogue and resulting study materials that resulted when a Protestant Pastor sat down with a Catholic priest and started asking questions about what Catholics believed and their common ground with Protestants. Not a debate, the revealing conversation between two leaders of large churches has created a following of thousands around the world of both Protestants and Catholics. The attraction is the objective, rationale, and graceful role modeling that these two men demonstrate in their attempt to discover the great common ground between their two faith traditions. Absent are the misunderstandings, misrepresentatons and fallacious language that so often surrounds such conversations. Both Catholic and Protestant theologians have endorsed it.
Just watched this last night. Worth the time. Might be a good idea for some here.
“....the attraction is the objective, rationale, and graceful role modeling that these two men demonstrate....”
“:...absent are the misunderstandings, misrepresentations and fallacious language....”
Yes, there is a definite attraction to objective (not subjective) and graceful dialogue.
Where charity and love prevail, there God is always found.
That is definitely good “role modeling”. It reminds me of the Lord Jesus describing Nathaniel: “He is a true Israelite; he is man without guile.”
I’m sure that it’s working because these two men have taken the high road.
You wrote:
“Jesus told the Jews who believed him, “If you abide in my Word, you are my disciples indeed.” Not “in my Word and in the traditions of the church.””
And how much had Jesus written down in scripture at that point? Oh, that’s right - NOTHING. His Word was as much oral and it was later written and was entirely oral in His three year ministry. Apparently you forgot that. He entrusted the office of teaching to His Church. He wrote nothing.
“In his high priestly prayer he said to his Father, “Your Word is truth.” Not “your Word plus something else.””
God’s Word is truth and it was entrusted to the Church to teach it. You are calling God a liar and probably don’t even realize it. 1 Timothy 3:15 explains that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. The Holy Spirit inspired Paul’s letter to Timothy. Thus, GOD HIMSELF SAYS the pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church. I trust God more than I will ever trust what you falsely claim.
You wrote:
“Well, Popes aren’t bound by canon law in the first place, so that is irrelevant.”
The Church is more than just the pope - and the Church is bound by canon law.
Also, you cited a known Lutheran (and mildly anti-Catholic) scholar from over a century ago. That tells me nothing. That is merely his opinion. SHOW ME THE ACTUAL CHURCH TEACHING THAT ENDORSES THE SALE OF INDULGENCES. Of course a donation - and it was a donation and not a sale or payment - was connected with SOME indulgences. The problem for your false claim is that it was a DONATION and those who could not donate anything still were given the indulgence! Thus, no sale!!!
This is borne out by your own source but for some reason he keeps it in Latin rather than translates it fully into English!!!:
“and the instructions of Albert, abp. of Mainz, quoted by Brieger, nec opus est, quod contribuentes pro animabus in capsam sint corde contriti et ore confessi.”
The instructions of Albrecht - which I have posted here at FR more than once - make it clear that he, the presiding archbishop, did not envision any sale of indulgences at all, but knew it to be a donation. Thus, NO SALE. And even if he was violating canon law - and I don’t see any evidence that he was on this point - he was not the Catholic Church, but just one archbishop.
You are doing such a good job proving me RIGHT. Please keep up the good work!!!
“You have a PhD in history and you don’t know that in 1517 Pope Leo X (who spent money like Obama) offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome?”
Yes, I know Leo did know that. And alms clearly indicates it was not a sale. A donation is not a sale. Thank you for once again proving me to be 100% correct on this issue. As I have said, I researched this for years. There is no evidence that shows any hint that the Catholic Church ever taught that indulgences should be sold, wanted to sell indulgences or sold indulgences. What individuals like Tetzel did was on their head and not the Church’s.
“In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.”
Exactly and he did so to prevent any further violations of canon law. He knew, however, that the Church never sold them. Individuals did so, but that was against Church law. Pius V was a no nonsense kind of man. He knew the easiest way to stop all abuses connected with indulgences and money was to simply go back to the idea of no money being connected in any way with indulgences as it was in the first place.
Once again, you have shown I was correct. Notice, Pius V did not say that the Church sold indulgences and took steps to make sure no one could do so because NOT SELLING INDULGENCES was the Church’s practice and law anyway.
“Do you controvert the fact that in 1517 Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome?”
Nope. Alms means donations. Donations means no sales. And if you had no money to donate, you still got the indulgence anyway. That means no sale.
Thansk for working so hard to show that I was right all along. I appreciate your time and effort in defeating your own false claims.
I noticed post 33 was deleted before I got a chance to read it. Do we know why?
Why was my post #33 deleted?
Any church that teaches this to its members should be condemned. The Gospel is the foundation of Christianity. You either believe it and are saved or you don't and you are condemned.
BTW, if you add to it you preach a different gospel.
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