Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
All this because the put the words of men above God’s WORD.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Oops
why
Sorry, the assumption was only heard in the church around the 4th century, via pagan sources and certainly NOT apostolic.
Do we have the bones of all the Apostles? Stephen who was martyred, Mary Magdelene, John the Baptist, The Lords Brother James or where they also assumed?
Could it be that Mary's importance to the church only grew 300 to 400 years after her death, coinciding with the pagan godess worship influence?
It is strange that we dont have all the bones of the Most prominent players in the NT. Why would not having the bones of Mary mean she was assumed? Mary, by ANY standards was not that prominent a figure in the NT Scripture.
What a silly, absurdly wrong comment.
Boundaries . . . have you not read the book?
Perhaps
boundaries is not a term found in the
Vatican Daffynitionary?
boundaries, rules, parameters, limits,
Are Parochial schools getting THAT bad?
Last I recall, the mod’s instructions were to not post anything in a foreign language without a translation.
Sorry, RM, but I don’t recall that precisely but after that last exorcism prayer episode, I believe that you laid down that law.
Unless the word or phrase, sentence or paragraph - is very common (e.g. adios) then it must be translated on thread.
A Roman Catholic Bible commentary concurs:
“Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications. In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (vv. 6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.”
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a131.htm
PRAISE GOD FOR YOUR PATIENCE, CLARITY AND WISDOM . . . CLEARLY FROM ABOVE—HIS SPIRIT.
The Queen of Heaven is mentioned in the Bible only in these verses of the book of Jeremiah
Jeremiah 7:18 , 44:17 , 44:18 , 44:19 , 44:25
You should take the time to read the punishment that happened to Israel for worshiping her.
You can’t prove a negative. It’s like that whole episode of Bush being at some army base.
People claim he wasn’t there and their proof is that they didn’t see him.
Likewise with Mary’s bones.
If Catholics even COULD produce a skeleton, that would STILL not *prove* that the bones were even really Mary’s. They could have been any female’s.
Not being able to produce a skeleton does NOT prove that she was assumed because there are too many other valid reasons of why someone wouldn’t have them; like nobody recalled where she was buried or they crumbled into dust by now.
You would know . . .
Do they actually have classes in
teeth gnashing at Proddys
in Parochial schools?
“Could it be that Mary’s importance to the church only grew 300 to 400 years after her death, coinciding with the pagan godess worship influence?”
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_in_the_early_church.htm
There are those who say the Catholics made up this Mary thing out of thin air in the last century or so - that she was no part of early Christianity. Paradoxically there is another crowd who dismiss Mary as the ancient pagan goddess Gaia (mother earth) long predating Christ. Some Evangelicals seem to reach far for an explanation for the Catholic relationship to Mary. Catholics think the best place to look is the Bible and the early Church.
It has only been in the last couple of hundred years that there has been any question about Mary’s validity. A simple look at medieval paintings will verify that she was always a happening part of the Christian scene.
The book “The Blessed Virgin in the Fathers of the First Six Centuries” (by Thomas Livius, Published by Burns & Oates) contains a powerful witness to the devotion early Christians had toward Mary. In the year 130 Irenaeus wrote about her. He was familiar with those who had been close both to Peter and to Paul and who “had still the preaching of the blessed Apostles ringing in their ears” He said:
“As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel’s speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’ obedience.” (Against Heresies, 3, 19) (130 A.D.)
St. Justin in 110-165 A.D. writes:
For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it don to me according to thy word. And so by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him (Dialogue with Trypho, 100 A.D.)
Eve was called the mother of the living ...after the fall this title was given to her. True it is...the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve; but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all living (St. Epiphanius, Against Eighty Heresies, 78,9)
One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and Child dating back to the second century, and the oldest known request to Mary, the “Sub Tuum Praesidium”, dates back to at least 300 AD!
We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos2;
despise not our petition in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.
2Means “Godbearer” or Mother of God. This title came into Christian use very early. It simply says that she gave birth to Jesus, who any Christian will agree is God.
There were also feasts in memory of the Assumption of Mary in Antioch dating back to 380 A.D.
We see the genesis of the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, Assumption, and the traditional role of Mary as Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix in the early Church. Here are references to Mary by other early church fathers:
Mary, you are the vessel and tabernacle containing all mysteries. You know what the Patriarchs never knew; you have experienced what was never revealed to the Angels; you have heard what the Prophets never heard. In a word, all that was hidden from preceding generations was made known to you; even more, most of these wonders depended on you. (270 A.D., St. Gregory Thaumaturgus),
Blessed Virgin, immaculate and pure you are the sinless Mother of your Son, the mighty Lord of the universe. You are holy and inviolate, the hope of the hopeless and sinful; we sing your praises. We praise you as full of every grace, for you bore the God-Man. We all venerate you; we invoke you and implore your aid...Holy and immaculate Virgin...be our intercessor and advocate at the hour of death and judgment...you are holy in the sight of God, to Whom be honor and glory, majesty, and power forever (373 AD, St. Ephem of Edessa)
It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him Who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called ‘full of Grace’...” (373 St. Athanasius)
Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? ...accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring about our peace with God...Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you, feel now your help and protection. ...Make it your continual care to pray for the people of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns for ever. (St Augustine in 430 A.D. )
One of the important thing to notice in all these quotes is the clear references to God/Jesus as the Saviour and Mary’s role of interceding. Mary is a helper. There is no sin in asking someone for help. Most of us at one point or another have asked our pastor or friend to pray for us. That is what these early Church Fathers are doing.
The Catholic church is explicit that Mary’s role is as helper. Around 350-450 A.D. there was a heresy called Collyridianism where there was a group of women who did worship Mary as a diety. They were not Catholic. A Catholic representative, Saint Epiphanius defeated this heresy with his apologetic Panarion.
But that’s not what you said. Maybe it’s time for you to go to bed. Maybe you’re just tired. You weren’t making sense. LOL!
But you try so hard to do it! CONTROL!!
REALLY......
That's interesting. I perused the RM's posting history to find that statement and couldn't. I did see where he said it was annoying, but *annoying* ≠ *abusive spam*.
Why would you want to claim that he said something there is no record of?
Ask him if you are unable to puzzle that out of the posts here.
OK. I pinged him.....
Neither do you.
Then why the persistence on your part to have quix's posts removed and to stop him from posting what he wants that's not hurting anybody?
That does come across as seriously trying to call the shots on your part.
WRONG AGAIN.
That’s exactly what I said—that I was prepared to live within the rules, parameters etc. of the RM.
I just wasn’t using the Vatican DAFFYNITIONS meaning of the term.
LOL.
Understandable.
However, the obviously beleagured RM has noted that he has to do some things before Sunday. I doubt Sunday is that far off if he lives in CONUS (Continental US).
Perhaps we should be cool and quite harrassing the bothered, probably bewildered, bloke.
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