Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
BTW,
If you wish to examing the paragon examples
of nonsensical posts . . .
follow the RC’s on FR.
OK.
It would be nice if narses would follow accordingly.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.Spammed to me dozens of times, filling my comments page with multicolored and very ugly attacks on me and my faith.
I am glad that your grandson is learning Latin. From there he will be able to learn almost every other Western European language except for German, Czech and Slovak.
“Catholics use it here where they are up to no good”.
Now that’s funny and sad simultaneously.
Fear not.
-Theo
Since we do not yet have a King sitting on the Throne of David ruling with a rod of iron in the Davidic Kingdom, can you show us in the scriptures where the Mother of the High Priest rules, provides salvation and grace???
Could God have planted the embryo of Jesus in a stained, faulty, sinful container.....I guess He could have, but why would He have insulted His son by doing so when it was very easy for Him to create a PERFECT container
Like most of the novel Marian doctines, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, is derived at by deducing what would be fitting for God to have done, and presto the guess becomes dogma.
Strange that being born of a virgin, who needed a savior, is an insult by God? But being beaten, scorned, spit on and murdered, shamefully, by sinful men on false charges while being sinless and innocent is not an insult?
“Since we do not yet have a King ...”
You deny the Kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.
Mix it up. Use hot links. And always on the Religion Forum remember:
James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.
Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.
Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.
Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.
Quix and his quack pseudo-psychological attacks on me are, in fact, “making it personal”, and when his SPAM fills page after page of my notes with multicolored swill, it is also a form of “making it personal”, no?
AYE AYE.
I got carried away . . . particularly going through several hundred posts in a short time responding thusly.
Sorry.
You apparently don't realize how utterly ridiculous that statement is...
The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom...The Davidic Kingdom is a physical Kingdom...You guys just don't have a clue yet you spew this stuff out like you really know something...
the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ.
Why not the Lord God Holy Spirit???
Your spam doesn't count?
Does....."one trick pony" ring a bell?
What does venerate mean? If it equals worship, then it is for God only. If it means an act of giving honor, then, no. We may give honor to, venerate, others than God. It is often the act of giving honor to a religious figure, saint for example, that some think is "worship" when it is not. It's not binary: worship/no honor. How much can we honor someone without it being worship? Or..
What would you say is the difference between an idol and an icon? IOW, what makes an idol an idol?
NOW NOW, MM,
You should know by now . . .
Rabid Clique RC’s and most of the others
have an automatic exemption from the rules that everyone else has to live by.
The exemption is renewed, embossed on gold on the top White Hanky in every new box of White Hankys floated down from Mary as a thank you for all their worship of her.
/sar
One at a time I respond to posters. Spam like quix used on this thread is abusive.
If my posts are wrong in response to quix’s odd, repetitive (and until this thread) one at a time spews of color and repetitive cut-n-pastes - well then so are his original posts.
Two different issues, but both open to discussion.
I am absolutely open to quix no longer playing his multi-colored, repetitive posts which would eliminate my responses to same.
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