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Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: freformed
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To: Quix

541 posted on 12/18/2010 4:02:03 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: narses; Quix

Are you trying to out do Quix? Quix “signage” much better than this dark ugly printed material. Might want to find another way to express yourself...looks like the dark night of someones soul..


542 posted on 12/18/2010 4:02:37 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

LOL.

Thanks for your kind words.

I rather agree about the darkness, BTW.


543 posted on 12/18/2010 4:04:05 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww

Since you ignored that question, let me try another, what denomination do you adhere to, worship with or claim membership in?


544 posted on 12/18/2010 4:04:05 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Deo volente

Nice try...you knew what my point was and remains...Mary was not given any power...the deciples were...she received no power or authority at the cross... nor in the upper room nor at his crucifixion....she was present but not at all active. Which is my point...God never intended she go further than raising Christ...her job done her last words recorded were...”Do what He says”...Catholics would be wise to take heed she directed them to Christ...not herself..and she was done speaking thereafter.

For as few mentions of anything she has stated in scripture the catholic churc has raised her up as part of the trinity ...which she has no recorded history of whatsoever from God. Only that as Mother to the Baby Jesus...certainly not my mother or anyone elses.


545 posted on 12/18/2010 4:09:14 PM PST by caww
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To: narses; Quix
He seems to be getting a lot of mileage out of that book. The only problem is, his apologetics vehicle has four flat tires and is missing an engine, so he's really not going anywhere!

Sorry, I couldn't resist the metaphor.

546 posted on 12/18/2010 4:09:54 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: narses

Now you know we do not post our church affiliations for security issues. But I am indeed non-catholic...


547 posted on 12/18/2010 4:11:29 PM PST by caww
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To: Deo volente

Beware the jabborwock!

Jabberwocky

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“”
from Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There


548 posted on 12/18/2010 4:11:32 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: caww

“Now you know we do not post our church affiliations for security issues.”

Really? So Lutherans are a security risk? How is answering a question of the denomination a “security risk”?


549 posted on 12/18/2010 4:12:40 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: narses

Deception is beautiful to Catholics.


550 posted on 12/18/2010 4:25:26 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Oh my gosh PNSN...how can they be a part of that! Completely dethrones Christ as Savior...Mary isn’t any of these things....she cannot appease anyones desires...only Jesus can....only he is a safe harbor...Mary saves no one...and she certainly is not crowned Queen of Heaven..there is no such thing. Sheesh!

They ask her to “bathe their minds with her truths”...only Jesus is the truth...she has no power..it was all given to Him.

I shuddered when he wrote ‘Conqueruss of evil and death” What blashemy!!!!! Jesus Christ conquered evil and death thru His crucifixion...not Mary not ever...oh the mindless proifanity in his statement..and catholics followed these Popes? and then to add insult to injury he prays she convert the wicked no less! and seals the deal...in her name..not Christ’s.!!!!!!!!

It’s all bad and more than astounding that catholics buy into this....makes me think, rather than simply suspect, many catholics who believe this stuff don’t know Christ at all....if they do as some say they could not remain in the cathilic church which preaches and believes this...astounnding!


551 posted on 12/18/2010 4:25:31 PM PST by caww
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To: presently no screen name
Deception is beautiful to Catholics

I am fast believing they are willingly deceived. In light of all the scriptures and solid arguements that they are following very destructive and false teachings..still they hold tightly to a lie...and one which is completely and fully obvious that it is a lie.

552 posted on 12/18/2010 4:28:26 PM PST by caww
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To: narses; Quix

No, actually, you ARE done. You can post all you want; when you go over the line and stop dealing with the point and resort to making personal attacks, you lose the argument. Thus, you’re done.

It’s a lot like when folks trot out the, “you’re a Fascist!” line. It means they have nothing more substantial to add to the argument/conversation. Too, it’s much like the little kid that gets trumped and has nothing left but, “You stink!” Or when someone uses a screen name as a jab... like, “Nope, still here, ‘hoss.’” Too bad you went personal instead of trying to argue a point.

But, I would like to thank you for proving the point that Roman Catholics DO pray to Mary, despite the protestations of BenKenobi.

Oooh. I used “protestations.” Such a big word. Maybe I can skip community college.

Hoss (as in my screen name)


553 posted on 12/18/2010 4:28:47 PM PST by HossB86
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To: presently no screen name; Molly K.; Not gonna take it anymore; Celtic Cross; ...
presently no screen name wrote:
Deception is beautiful to Catholics.
Jabberwocky
 
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“”
from Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There

554 posted on 12/18/2010 4:31:13 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: caww

Totally agree. It’s all blasphemy and they cherish it. Truly the counterfeit church.


555 posted on 12/18/2010 4:33:12 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: HossB86

“You can post all you want; when you go over the line and stop dealing with the point and resort to making personal attacks, you lose the argument.”

So this thread died many, many, many posts before.

“No, actually, you ARE done.”

Clueless and self-important. Clearly wrong again. I am still here. That your blindness prevents you from seeing the Truth in any manifestation also is evident.

Do try and get that help you so clearly need.


556 posted on 12/18/2010 4:33:23 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: BenKenobi

How can she be our mother when we’re created by God? The verse you quote doesn’t come close to affirming that.

No, she would not have to be able to hear anyone. She’s not omniscient, nor is she omnipresent. Only God is. Only God hears/answers prayers. No one else. Certainly not a creature like us.

I read the prayer. And at least you now affirm it’s a prayer to Mary. Now I would still like to hear and understand your dissonance (another big word for you there, narses) concerning prayer to Mary. You’ve spent quite a few posts trying to convince me that Roman Catholics do not pray to anyone other than God. But, this prayer that narses posted is a prayer to Mary.

Which is it?

Hoss


557 posted on 12/18/2010 4:34:21 PM PST by HossB86
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To: caww
I am fast believing they are willingly deceived

There is no doubt it. And that prayer is from a Pope - you know, their 'infallible' head. More blasphemy.
558 posted on 12/18/2010 4:37:43 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: narses

narses,

I didn’t say you weren’t here. I said you were done. Your argument is without merit.

Funny; you were complaining some posts back about motes and beams. Hypocrite much?

It’s cute, but tiresome.

Hoss (as in my screen name)


559 posted on 12/18/2010 4:41:22 PM PST by HossB86
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To: narses

Kidstuff from a schoolyard Narses.....you lost the arguement.


560 posted on 12/18/2010 4:45:48 PM PST by caww
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