Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Well that certainly is a good reason to stay away from church.....some members of my congregation oppose my views on Isreal so I think I'll sleep in this Sunday.....besides Golf is much more fun than listening to some preacher expound on the bible....FORE
in matters of faith and morals, yes...when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, he is protected by God from error....the church was promised that from the beginning
Thanks for the link.
Looks worth while to rumage around for other gems.
Nope, never have. Never prayed the rosary either.
Does that somehow matter?
Freep-mail me to get on or off my Catholic Apologetics and the Defense of the Faith ping list:
Please ping me to Catholic threads where I can help defend our common faith!
My tagline has nothing to do with Catholicism, but then I'm thinking you knew that already.
I’m confused...
I'm not surprised.
I have. Contrary to the claim, not all Catholic posters taglines have references to Mary in them. I merely pointed out the error in the claim.
Just so. Both Luther and Calvin were highly respectful of the Virgin Mary.
Luther accorded her every Catholic title that was common in his day, with the sole exception of “Queen of Heaven.”
The disrespect shown by many Protestants for the Mother of Jesus was a later development. And it is not compatible with numerous passages in the Bible.
I became aware of this when a friend of mine investigated the puzzling (to many) question as to why the Puritan John Milton also speaks so respectfully about Mary in his poems. Indeed, in Paradise Regained, he treats her far more respectfully than he treats the Apostles.
Celebrating Christmas on December 25th... not biblical by the same standard.
Using your standards for Marian veneration...
Wouldn’t it be heresy to celebrate Christmas on December 25th?
After all the date is not contained in scripture.
>> the Catholics would still rule the roost......they wrote and interpreted the scriptures.....get it now??<<
The Catholic Church as you understand it did NOT write the Scriptures. Lets look at who really did write the books of the Bible.
Old Testament Books
Genesis – 1688BC Moses
Exodus – 1600BC Moses
Leviticus – 1686BC Moses
Numbers – Moses just before entering Canaan
Deuteronomy – 1645 Moses
Joshua – 1646-1616 Joshua with perhaps help of Eleazar, Phinehas, and Samuel
Judges – 1126BC Samuel most likely but maybe Isaiah
Ruth – 1163-1123BC probably Samuel
1-2 Samuel 1204-1035 Samuel, David, Nathan, and Gad, compiled by Isaiah in 743-683BC
1-2 Kings – 1046-616 by Scribes under individual Kings, compiled probably by Isaiah and Jeremiah
1-2 Chronicles – 1279-461BC by Scribes and compiled by Isaiah and Ezra
Nehemiah – 44-430BC either Nehemiah or Ezra
Esther – 516-506BC Ezra the Scribe
Job – 1843-1703 probably by Job and Moses
Psalms – 1500-450BC by the 100 with proven authors 50 without compiled by Ezra
Proverbs – 1000BC Hezekiah but last 2 chapters by unknown man and woman but probably added by Hezekiah
Ecclesiastes – 1000BC Solomon
Song of Solomon – 1000BC Solomon
Isaiah – 792-722BS Isaiah
Jeremiah – 685-616BC Jeremiah
Lamentations – 616BC Jeremiah
Ezekiel – 622-600BC Ezekiel
Daniel – 606-536BC Daniel
Hoea – 781-711BC Hosea the prophet
Joel – 795-755BC Joel the prophet
Amos – 824-810BC Amos the prophet
Obadiah – 899-795BC Obadiah the prophet
Jonah – 853-824BC Jonah
Micah – 772-722BC Micah the prophet
Nahum – 786-787BC Nahum the prophet
Habakkuk – 679-648BC Habakkuk the prophet
Zephaniah – 679-648BC Zephaniah the prophet
Haggai – 557-525BC Haggai
Zechariah – 557-525BC Zechariah
Malachi – 557-525BC Malachi the prophet
New Testament Books
Matthew – 37AD written by Matthew, called Levi, son of Alphaeus and brother of James
Mark – 57-63AD written by John Mark
Luke – 58-63AD written by Luke
John – 90AD written by John
Luke - 63AD written by Luke, the beloved physician
Romans – 58-60AD the 6th of Pauls letters written in Crinth and sent to Rome by Phebe
1 Corinthians – 59AD written by Paul at Ephesus
2 Corinthians – 60AD written by Paul
Galatians – 69AD written by Paul
Ephesians – 64AD written by Paul
Philippians – 64AD written by Paul
Colossians – 64AD written by Paul
1 Thessalonians – 54AD written by Paul
2 Thessalonians – 54-55AD written by Paul
1Timothy – 67AD written by Paul
2 Timothy – 68AD written by Paul
Titus – 67AD written by Paul
Philemon – 64AD written by Paul
Hebrews – 68AD written by Paul
James – 45AD written by James the brother of Jesus
1Peter – 60AD written by Peter
2 Peter – 61-65AD written by Peter
1-3 John – 90AD written by John the Apostle
Jude – 66AD written by Jude
Revelation – 96AD written by John the Apostle
>>God is still her savior, but she could have received salvation at any moment of her life.....God is always our savior.....always<<
If Mary was sinless why would she need Salvation? Salvation from what?
That goes against every thing that your priests and bishops teach; that you won't know if you go to heaven until you meet Jesus face to face, at the final judgment...
So which one is it??? Do you know you are saved, right now, but you will have to be purified??? Or is it a mystery until you pass or fail at the final judgment???
The only fires a person will come in contact with are the fires of the pit of Hell...I'd say your religion is conditioning you to go to Hell and convincing you that it's a good place to go...
Not a single Christian will feel a flame...Only his past bad works will touch the fire...
If you are looking forward to getting burnt, you really need to search out God's word to find out the truth...
Your religion already resembles the Mormon religion...
Why does copy and paste from your Catholic sites always include Greek and Latin words??? Is this to make the author more authoritative or somehow seem to add weight to the philosophy???
“That goes against every thing that your priests and bishops teach; that you won’t know if you go to heaven until you meet Jesus face to face, at the final judgment.”
Purgatory happens after we meet Jesus face to face at the final Judgment.
“Not a single Christian will feel a flame”
Corinthians explicitly says that those who’s works do not bear the test will escape through the flames. Every Christian will face this test. Some will pass and some will fail.
Have read (and posted) many times where your religion claims you must go thru Mary to receive salvation...
What's up with that???
Christ saved her from sinning. Christ is her Saviour.
Why wouldn’t it be odd? Well, if Mary had been born without sin, she would not have needed a savior, particularly when the claim is made that she remained without sin. So, logically:
If Mary is sinless, why the need to be saved from sin?
If Mary is a sinner, needing a savior, then she was a sinner.
See my earlier posting referencing Luke where SHE STATES that Jesus is/will be HER savior.
Can’t have it both ways.
Hoss
“The article represents the historical view of people ignorant of, or revisionist of, peoples who came through history from Byzantania”
You mean the Roman Empire. Y’know the same place that hosted the Councils of Constantinople, Nicaea, Ephesus, etc.
“the Caucuses”
You mean Armenia, the first Christian nation? Since about 400AD.
“Eastern Europe”
You mean the Serbians, Romanians, Greeks? All Romans.
“the Alps”
Romans.
“northern Europe”
Romans again.
“British Isles”
Also Roman. All of these places were, for most of their history, with the possible exception of Armenia, both Roman and Catholic. The division of the Faith into West and East, did not exist in the beginning.
‘Biblicist never connected with Rome’
Horsehockey.
“There were Christians who had never heard of such a thing as a pope (there was NO pope until the 4th century”)
According to whom? You? There were Popes from St. Peter onwards.
“Biblicist Christians from the first century”
If by Biblicist you mean Catholic, then Yes, this is true.
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