“You don’t know what a prayer is and you also don’t know your Bible. The word “pray” comes from the Latin word precari, which simply means to entreat or ask. A prayer is a form of communicating a request,, typically of a spiritual nature. Also, Jesus would never have commanded Lazurus, given their relationship. That would have been highly disrespectful.”
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The word for how Jesus spoke to Lazarus is not “precari” - “pray”, it’s “eipon” - “having said”
John 11:43
When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”
http://biblos.com/john/11-43.htm
The word in the Greek is to command.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2036.htm
answer, bid, bring word, command
A primary verb (used only in the definite past tense, the others being borrowed from ereo, rheo, and phemi); to speak or say (by word or writing) — answer, bid, bring word, call, command, grant, say (on), speak, tell. Compare lego.
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Jesus didn’t request Lazarus to come out. He didn’t pray to him to come out. He didn’t beg him, *Lazarus, would you please come out of that tomb.*
He commanded him in a loud voice - come forth.
Honestly, you need to work on your reading comprehension if you can’t tell the difference between a command and a request.
And that last bit about Jesus not telling Lazarus what to do because of it being disrespectful is pathetically laughable. They weren’t so namby-pamby gushy that people are today thinking that TELLING someone to do something is “disrespectful”.
That’s ludicrous. It reminds me of all these parents in the store begging their two year old to behave. *Johnny, that’s not nice. Please stop hitting your sister.*
Here’s a link to some grammar that explains what imperatives are.
http://www.englishlanguageguide.com/english/grammar/imperative.asp
Why would Jesus talk to a man who was dead? Lazarus could not hear! Lazurus had already passed and was totally incapable of raising himself from the dead any more than you or I could. So what was going on here? Jesus was not issuing a command. Jesus loved and respected Lazarus and would never issue a “command” to him. No, Jesus would have made a heartfelt plea to Lazarus to come back to the living, just as you might tell a dying uncle to please not go and to come back. A command? No. Jesus could have simply had the thought and it would have happened. What took place was Jesus praying aloud for everyone to hear for Lazarus to arise from the dead. This is extremely important for us to understand. And to whom did Jesus pray? To Himself? To the Holy Spirit? To God the Father? No. Jesus prayed to Lazarus! Jesus here shows us that yes we can communicate to the dead through prayer! God hears these prayers and intercedes on our behalf.
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Lazarus is not analogous to PTDS (prayer to departed saints), as the case with the latter is that they are in heaven and able to hear and respond to potentially billions of prayers simultaneously, an attribute of Deity never shown to have been given to man, and are purportedly making intercession to God. The issue is no >You don’t know what a prayer is and you also don’t know your Bible. The word “pray” comes from the Latin word precari, which simply means to entreat or ask. A prayer is a form of communicating a request,, typically of a spiritual nature. Also, Jesus would never have commanded Lazurus, given their relationship. That would have been highly disrespectful.”< >>The word for how Jesus spoke to Lazarus is not “precari” - “pray”, it’s “eipon” - “having said” ...The word in the Greek is to command.<< |
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The issue is not simply what the word prayer means, but its object, and the spiritual relation that exists between God and man in the spiritual realm, and the separation of realms which God manifests, and thus communication between created heavenly beings and earthlings always were personal encounters, while relations between people on earth is not to be by telepathy. Lazarus is not analogous to PTDS (prayer to departed saints), as the case with the latter is that they are in heaven and able to hear and respond to potentially billions of prayers simultaneously, an attribute of Deity never shown to have been given to man, and are purportedly making intercession to God. Lazarus likely had not yet ascended (that's another study) and was being address by the Lord, not for help but to obey, and if another addressed Lazarus he would be talking to the wall. The foundational issue is that of Scriptural warrant and conflation. The Bible teaches abundantly on prayer, and in order to warrant PTDS (praying to departed saints in heaven) one must find an approved example or teaching of it, and some insufficiency in Christ as regards immediate access or ability or compassion, etc. Yet the Bible provides just the opposite and clearly so. The advocate of PTDS is thus left seeking to extrapolate this out of analogy between earthly communications, supposing a complete correspondence to that between earth and heaven, and or a "God can do anything" hermeneutic, but which is a strained and problematic exegesis which cannot overcome the weight of evidence against it, and such attempts are typical of cults when faced with the same. To substantiate that PTDS is Scriptural, one needs to, from the Bible (and in order of importance), |
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provide just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where anyone besides heathen prayed to, addressed, anyone else in heaven but the Lord. |
Example, descriptions, instructions. See Bible prayers here Gen. 15:2; 17:18; 18:23; 18:23-32; 24:12-14; 32:9-12; Ex. 25:22; 32:11-13; 33:12-19; Num. 6:23-26; 10:35-36; 11:11-16; 12:13-14; 14:13-19; 27:15-18; Dt. 3:23-25; 9:25; 9:26-29; 21:7-9; 26:5-10; Josh. 7:7-9; Jdg 6:13; 6:15; 6:15-17; 6:36-37; 6:39; 13:8; 16:8; 1Ki. 3:5-61; 17:20-21; 18:25-26; 18:27-37; 19:4; 2Chr. 6:40; 14:11; 20:6-12; 30:18-19; Neh. 1:4,5; 1:4-11; 4:4-5; 9:5-38; Ps. 4:1; 5:3; 6:9; 17:1; 35:13; 39:12; 42:8; 54:2; 55:1; 61:1; 64:1; 65:2; 66:19,20:69:13; 72:15; 80:4; 84:8; 86:1,6; 86:6; 88:2,13; 90:1; 102:1,17; 109:4,7; 141:2,5; 142:1; 143:1; Prov. 15:8,29; 28:8;
Mat. 6:9-13; 11:25-27; 17:21; 21:22; 26:39; Lk. 1:9,13; 6:12; 18:10-13; 19:46; 23:30; 23:34; 23:46; Jn.11:41-42; 17:1-22; 17:1-26; Acts 1:14,24-25; 3:1; 6:4; 9:6; 10:2,31; 12:5; 16:13,16; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; 13:20-21; Rev. 6:16-16; 22:2022:20 |
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provide one place where exhortations, commands or instruction or descriptions on prayer directed believers to pray to departed saints or angels. ("i.e. "After this manner pray, Our mother, who art in heaven...").. |
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show where believers in Christ cannot have direct access to God in heaven, or where any insufficiency exists in Christ regarding immediacy, ability, or compassion that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit. (Ex. 25:22; Eph. 2:18; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; etc.) |
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If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that. |
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show where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them. |
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show where the departed are given the Divine attribute of omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer. (Ps. 65:2; 139:4; Prov. 15:3) |
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provide where any communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, either by men being caught up to heaven or by angels coming to earth. (Jdg. 13; Mk. 9:2-9; Rev. 4:1ff;) |
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show where anyone else is called "Queen of heaven" other than Jer 44:17 (“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven,” who was a heavenly object of devotion and prayer. |
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If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that. |
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Show where another basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and is contrary to whatever is stated on the issue. |
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*There is no express command against consensual cannibalism (whoever dies first we will have for dinner) either, among other things. And while its basic prohibition is justly derived from Gn. 9:3,5,6 which establishes the source of man's food, yet in keeping with the foundational law of love, in dire circumstance of necessity it might be allowed (and with the Andes survivors).t simply praying to the deceased, but of the separation of realms which God manifests, and thus communication between created heavenly beings and earthlings always were personal encounters, while relations between ppl on earth is not to be by telepathy. The Bible teaches abundantly on prayer, and in order to warrant PTDS, one must find an approved example or teaching of it, and some insufficiency in Christ as regards immediate access or ability or compassion, etc. Yet the Bible provides just the opposite and clearly so. The advocate of PTDS is thus left seeking to extrapolate this out of analogy between earthly communications, supposing a complete correspondence to that between earth and heaven, and "God can do anything" hermeneutic, but which is a strained and problematic exegesis which cannot overcome the weight of evidence against it, and typical of cults when faced with the same. |
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