Posted on 12/05/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
............The Historical Evidence
The Roman Catholic Church claims that this doctrine, like all of their other distinctive doctrines, has the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” (contra unanimen consensum Patrum).[10] They argue that what they teach concerning the Immaculate Conception has been the historic belief of the Christian Church since the very beginning. As Ineffabilis Deus puts it,
The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God… has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin… and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts.[11]
However, the student of church history will quickly discover that this is not the case. The earliest traces of this doctrine appear in the middle ages when Marian piety was at its bloom. Even at this time, however, the acceptance of the doctrine was far from universal. Both Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the immaculate conception. The Franciscans (who affirmed the doctrine) and the Dominicans (who denied it, and of whom Aquinas was one) argued bitterly over whether this doctrine should be accepted, with the result that the pope at the time had to rule that both options were acceptable and neither side could accuse the other of heresy (ironic that several centuries later, denying this doctrine now results in an anathema from Rome).
When we go further back to the days of the early church, however, the evidence becomes even more glaring. For example, the third century church father Origen of Alexandria taught in his treatise Against Celsus (3:62 and 4:40) that that the words of Genesis 3:16 applies to every woman without exception. He did not exempt Mary from this. As church historian and patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly points out,
Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2.35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.”[12]
Also, it must be noted that it has been often pointed out that Jesus’ rebuke of Mary in the wedding of Cana (John 2:1-12) demonstrates that she is in no wise perfect or sinless. Mark Shea scoffs at this idea that Mary is “sinfully pushing him [Jesus] to do theatrical wonders in John 2,” arguing that “there is no reason to think [this] is true.”[13] However, if we turn to the writings of the early church fathers, we see that this is precisely how they interpreted Mary’s actions and Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of her. In John Chrysostom’s twenty-first homily on the gospel of John (where he exegetes the wedding of Cana), he writes,
For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?” (Matt. xii.48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion… He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.[14]
Now why on earth would Jesus care for the salvation of Mary’s soul at this point in time if she was already “preventatively” saved through having been immaculately conceived, as was claimed earlier? That does not make any sense, whatsoever. Likewise, Theodoret of Cyrus agrees with John Chrysostom in saying that the Lord Jesus rebuked Mary during the wedding at Cana. In chapter two of his Dialogues, he writes,
If then He was made flesh, not by mutation, but by taking flesh, and both the former and the latter qualities are appropriate to Him as to God made flesh, as you said a moment ago, then the natures were not confounded, but remained unimpaired. And as long as we hold thus we shall perceive too the harmony of the Evangelists, for while the one proclaims the divine attributes of the one only begotten—the Lord Christ—the other sets forth His human qualities. So too Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, at one time calling Himself Son of God and at another Son of man: at one time He gives honour to His Mother as to her that gave Him birth [Luke 2:52]; at another He rebukes her as her Lord [John 2:4].[15] And then there is Augustine of Hippo, whom many Roman Catholic apologists attempt to appeal to for their belief in the immaculate conception. They like to quote a portion of chapter 42 of his treatise, On Nature and Grace, where Augustine states,
We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.[16]
However, those who quote this passage miss the point of what Augustine is trying to communicate. He was trying to refute the Pelagian heretics (who were the ones who were claiming that Mary—among other biblical characters—were sinless, since they denied the depravity of man). The article explaining Augustine’s view of Mary on Allan Fitzgerald’s Augustine Through the Ages helps clear up misconceptions regarding this passage:
His [Augustine's] position must be understood in the context of the Pelagian controversy. Pelagius himself had already admitted that Mary, like the other just women of the Old testament, was spared from any sin. Augustine never concedes that Mary was sinless but prefers to dismiss the question… Since medieval times this passage [from Nature and Grace] has sometimes been invoked to ground Augustine’s presumed acceptance of the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is clear nonetheless that, given the various theories regarding the transmission of original sin current in his time, Augustine in that passage would not have meant to imply Mary’s immunity from it.[17]
This same article then goes on to demonstrate that Augustine did in fact believe that Mary received the stain of original sin from her parents:
His understanding of concupiscence as an integral part of all marital relations made it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that she herself was conceived immaculately. He… specifies in [Contra Julianum opus imperfectum 5.15.52]… that the body of Mary “although it came from this [concupiscence], nevertheless did not transmit it for she did not conceive in this way.” Lastly, De Genesi ad litteram 10.18.32 asserts: “And what more undefiled than the womb of the Virgin, whose flesh, although it came from procreation tainted by sin, nevertheless did not conceive from that source.”[18]
As can be seen here, these and many other early church fathers[19] did not regard Mary as being sinless or immaculately conceived. It is quite clear that the annals of church history testify that Rome cannot claim that this belief is based upon the “unanimous consent of the fathers,” since the belief that Mary was sinless started out among Pelagian heretics during the fifth century and did not become an acceptable belief until at least the beginning of the middle ages.
Conclusion
As has been demonstrated here, neither scripture nor church history support the contention of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary was sinless by virtue of having been immaculately conceived. In fact, Rome did not even regard this as an essential part of the faith until the middle of the nineteenth century. This should cause readers to pause and question why on earth Rome would anathematize Christians for disbelieving in a doctrine that was absent from the early church (unless one wants to side with the fifth century Pelagians) and was considered even by Rome to be essential for salvation until a century and a half ago. Because Rome said so? But their reasons for accepting this doctrine in the first place are so demonstrably wrong. After all, they claim that this was held as divinely revealed from the very beginning, even though four and a half centuries’ worth of patristic literature proves otherwise. This ought to be enough to cast doubt not only on Rome’s claims regarding Mariology, but their claims to authority on matters of faith and morals in general.
How do you get that grace to do those works of love?
You have yet to answer me LC... what is the GOOD NEWS
Then Catholics should have no problem telling us what the gospel is... what was the gospel that Jesus and the apostles preached?
I’ll take that as a *No*.
What is that supposed to infer? Catholicsm breeds tyrants? You'd better believe I take issue with that!
So what if they were Catholics? Do you think Catholics believe that there are no bad Catholics?
Jesus appointed Judas as one of His apostles, and look how that turned out. Does that make Jesus bad because of the choices Judas made?
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. In my personal face to face discussions with non-Catholics I have found them to be very civil, and while there is much we do not agree on, I've never experienced the level of hostility and name calling as I have seen on this thread.
Are you really Christians? You sure don't act like it!
Wag I am always told I am still a Catholic and still under the authority of the catholic church because my Catholic baptism left an INDELIBLE mark on my soul.
How is that not true of them ??
If we repent, are baptized and believe in Him we can have eternal life with Him in His Kingdom. However, we must also follow His commandment to love one another. We recieve the Holy Spirit through our acceptance of Christ and we receive the Body and Blood of Christ through the Eucharist.
I have answered numerous times as to what the Good News is. God’s initial grace is not something we get because of what we do. God is always the first cause of our faith and of our charity (works of love). Our faith is nourished in many ways. As a Catholic I believe that I receive sanctifying grace through the sacraments. The grace is also strengthened and brought to light be the hearing of His Word and by obeying it. Part of obeying it includes doing as Christ commanded in the Scripture cited.
And you not liking my answer about the Gospel is not the same as not answering you. Your own private interpretation is so far from historic Christianity I don’t even recognize it.
I owned and was the doctor in a busy health clinic. One day I had a 3 or 4 year old in the examining room and I noticed a crudely drawn tattoo of the letter “M” on his arm. I asked the little fellow how this ( “indelible”) mark got there. He said that his mom and her friends were drunk and put it there.
I think that before anyone does anything “indelible” to another person they should be certain that the person is old enough to have the agency to accept it or reject it.
If anyone has left the Catholic Church and repudiated its teachings, then that person is an excommunicated Catholic -- that person has excommunicate him/herself. To all appearances here, that is true of you.
This was my answer to Dr. E. It is also the answer of historic Christianity. You might crack open the Church fathers once in awhile to get their perspective.
Salvation, Salvation, Salvation. He preached it and He is it. He proclaimed the Kingdom of God was at hand. He ransoms us. He redeems us. He restores us. He draws back the veil. He makes us new creatures. He died on the Cross so that we may be with Him in Glory.
He is the Truth that all truths must be measured against. He is the good news of God’s love. All things were made for Him so that the very skies can proclaim His greatness.
He is my Lord, my Savior and my King.
Because the possibility of Salvation is available to even the most egregious sinner up until the moment of his/her death.
Keeping the Law "on the outside" isn't keeping the Law.
I think it's possible to keep "the letter of the law" yet neglect the spirit of the law. Jesus spoke of this when He said "Woe to you oh Pharisees, teachers of the law
Regardless, the law cannot save anyone. It's there to show us why we need a savior. Thank God for His Grace through Jesus Christ!
I once heard an awesome sermon where the preacher spoke about "Dr Law" and "Dr Grace."
Try not to be thin-skinned.
If the heart is right, the works will follow. That's why they're called "fruits."
Well, obviously RnMomof7's husband is quite pleased with her appearance or she wouldn't have the "Momof7" part in her name. Besides, I bet she's actually "curvy." Curvy is good.
I'm just asking for equal treatment. Does that concept disturb you?
Catholics would do well to heed that advice as well.
Why don’t you ever tell them that when they spam the abuse button or complain about insults from non-Catholics?
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