Posted on 12/05/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
............The Historical Evidence
The Roman Catholic Church claims that this doctrine, like all of their other distinctive doctrines, has the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” (contra unanimen consensum Patrum).[10] They argue that what they teach concerning the Immaculate Conception has been the historic belief of the Christian Church since the very beginning. As Ineffabilis Deus puts it,
The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God… has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin… and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts.[11]
However, the student of church history will quickly discover that this is not the case. The earliest traces of this doctrine appear in the middle ages when Marian piety was at its bloom. Even at this time, however, the acceptance of the doctrine was far from universal. Both Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the immaculate conception. The Franciscans (who affirmed the doctrine) and the Dominicans (who denied it, and of whom Aquinas was one) argued bitterly over whether this doctrine should be accepted, with the result that the pope at the time had to rule that both options were acceptable and neither side could accuse the other of heresy (ironic that several centuries later, denying this doctrine now results in an anathema from Rome).
When we go further back to the days of the early church, however, the evidence becomes even more glaring. For example, the third century church father Origen of Alexandria taught in his treatise Against Celsus (3:62 and 4:40) that that the words of Genesis 3:16 applies to every woman without exception. He did not exempt Mary from this. As church historian and patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly points out,
Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2.35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.”[12]
Also, it must be noted that it has been often pointed out that Jesus’ rebuke of Mary in the wedding of Cana (John 2:1-12) demonstrates that she is in no wise perfect or sinless. Mark Shea scoffs at this idea that Mary is “sinfully pushing him [Jesus] to do theatrical wonders in John 2,” arguing that “there is no reason to think [this] is true.”[13] However, if we turn to the writings of the early church fathers, we see that this is precisely how they interpreted Mary’s actions and Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of her. In John Chrysostom’s twenty-first homily on the gospel of John (where he exegetes the wedding of Cana), he writes,
For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?” (Matt. xii.48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion… He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.[14]
Now why on earth would Jesus care for the salvation of Mary’s soul at this point in time if she was already “preventatively” saved through having been immaculately conceived, as was claimed earlier? That does not make any sense, whatsoever. Likewise, Theodoret of Cyrus agrees with John Chrysostom in saying that the Lord Jesus rebuked Mary during the wedding at Cana. In chapter two of his Dialogues, he writes,
If then He was made flesh, not by mutation, but by taking flesh, and both the former and the latter qualities are appropriate to Him as to God made flesh, as you said a moment ago, then the natures were not confounded, but remained unimpaired. And as long as we hold thus we shall perceive too the harmony of the Evangelists, for while the one proclaims the divine attributes of the one only begotten—the Lord Christ—the other sets forth His human qualities. So too Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, at one time calling Himself Son of God and at another Son of man: at one time He gives honour to His Mother as to her that gave Him birth [Luke 2:52]; at another He rebukes her as her Lord [John 2:4].[15] And then there is Augustine of Hippo, whom many Roman Catholic apologists attempt to appeal to for their belief in the immaculate conception. They like to quote a portion of chapter 42 of his treatise, On Nature and Grace, where Augustine states,
We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.[16]
However, those who quote this passage miss the point of what Augustine is trying to communicate. He was trying to refute the Pelagian heretics (who were the ones who were claiming that Mary—among other biblical characters—were sinless, since they denied the depravity of man). The article explaining Augustine’s view of Mary on Allan Fitzgerald’s Augustine Through the Ages helps clear up misconceptions regarding this passage:
His [Augustine's] position must be understood in the context of the Pelagian controversy. Pelagius himself had already admitted that Mary, like the other just women of the Old testament, was spared from any sin. Augustine never concedes that Mary was sinless but prefers to dismiss the question… Since medieval times this passage [from Nature and Grace] has sometimes been invoked to ground Augustine’s presumed acceptance of the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is clear nonetheless that, given the various theories regarding the transmission of original sin current in his time, Augustine in that passage would not have meant to imply Mary’s immunity from it.[17]
This same article then goes on to demonstrate that Augustine did in fact believe that Mary received the stain of original sin from her parents:
His understanding of concupiscence as an integral part of all marital relations made it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that she herself was conceived immaculately. He… specifies in [Contra Julianum opus imperfectum 5.15.52]… that the body of Mary “although it came from this [concupiscence], nevertheless did not transmit it for she did not conceive in this way.” Lastly, De Genesi ad litteram 10.18.32 asserts: “And what more undefiled than the womb of the Virgin, whose flesh, although it came from procreation tainted by sin, nevertheless did not conceive from that source.”[18]
As can be seen here, these and many other early church fathers[19] did not regard Mary as being sinless or immaculately conceived. It is quite clear that the annals of church history testify that Rome cannot claim that this belief is based upon the “unanimous consent of the fathers,” since the belief that Mary was sinless started out among Pelagian heretics during the fifth century and did not become an acceptable belief until at least the beginning of the middle ages.
Conclusion
As has been demonstrated here, neither scripture nor church history support the contention of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary was sinless by virtue of having been immaculately conceived. In fact, Rome did not even regard this as an essential part of the faith until the middle of the nineteenth century. This should cause readers to pause and question why on earth Rome would anathematize Christians for disbelieving in a doctrine that was absent from the early church (unless one wants to side with the fifth century Pelagians) and was considered even by Rome to be essential for salvation until a century and a half ago. Because Rome said so? But their reasons for accepting this doctrine in the first place are so demonstrably wrong. After all, they claim that this was held as divinely revealed from the very beginning, even though four and a half centuries’ worth of patristic literature proves otherwise. This ought to be enough to cast doubt not only on Rome’s claims regarding Mariology, but their claims to authority on matters of faith and morals in general.
Cronos made an erroneous statement about something I did and said.
I corrected that and explained that his assumption was wrong.
He persisted in repeating the same misstatement to the very post where I made the correction.
What I don’t understand is....
How is that then not deliberate?
How is that itself not making it personal?
And if persisting in making false statements about someone even after they have been corrected and told what the error is, is acceptable on FR at all?
And Cronos isn’t the only one doing it.
Change? Fits right in with the ever changing rules/doctrine of the Vatican.
Christians believe on God’s WORD alone which always was and always will. They believe in the God who is ‘I AM’. Solid as a rock, Jesus is The Rock.
And all I hear is crickets.....
There, fixed it for you.
Note: This is something shared with a high percentage of the anti-Catholics on these threads.
Care to speculate the relationship of the Catholic Church to Lenin, Marx, Mao, Tojo, Osman, Kim Il Sun and Pol Pot?
Give me a list of changed Catholic dogmas.
I don’t dabble in deceit.
I did not suggest you do.
Yeah, dabble isn't the descriptor I would have chosen for you either.
Flame baiting and making it personal, IMO.
Wow. Blaming Catholicism for Hitler is like blaming Jesus for Judas... Yeah, that invalidates everything Jesus ever did or said...
Is her statement incorrect? What is your evidence to the contrary?
BTW, she forgot Lenin and Stalin. They were both baptized Catholic.
There, fixed it for you.
Whatever happened to *Once a Catholic, always a Catholic*?
When did the Catholic church ex-communicate them?
Correct- Jesus is the HEAD of His Church!
JESUS IS THE WORD
No arguments there. Except that the word to you is in the written form only; I listen to both the written AND spoken word.
My point here is that blaming the Church for things that bad Catholics have done is ridiculous, especially since tyrants by their very definition are breaking commandments. The only point in saying something like that is to be uncharitable.
While I disagree with non-Catholics on many things, that does not mean that I should insult their beliefs. I would not consider that very Christlike. After all, that second commandment was to "love your neighbor".
> “Care to speculate the relationship of the Catholic Church to Lenin, Marx, Mao, Tojo, Osman, Kim Il Sun and Pol Pot?”
.
Symbiotic.
.
FOTFLOL!!!!!
Do you actually know what excommunication is?
Do you understand how it can occur?
I only ask because I see no indication that you do.
Let's take Hitler and Stalin:
Hitler was admonished by a priest as a teenager, went crying from the church and NEVER RETURNED (there is NOTHING to suggest that he ever went to mass again and he certainly didn't have a Catholic funeral). By his actions he would later excommunicate himself.
Stalin left the seminary and would later tell the world that he rejected the Church in favor of Marxism. His own actions would also later excommunicate him.
Some of the Catholic sacraments - baptism, confirmation, Holy Orders leave a permanent mark on a person's soul that their life thereafter never completely erases. Should anyone undergo an epiphany the Church would not require anyone to undergo any of these sacraments again upon their return to the church.
When did the Catholic church ex-communicate them?"
The process known as excommunication is merely a formal recognition that the excommunicated person themselves has, by their own acts, placed themselves outside the Church, rather than the Church casting anyone out.
In some instances, such as in the case of a person who commits atrocities and crimes against humanity or even procures, aids or counsels an abortion, this excommunication is automatically incurred by the commission of the act (ie; there's no formal pronouncement that you are excommunicated) but the excommunication is in effect nonetheless.
The question is Wag what was He talking about..
Wag do you know what the gospel is ? What is the good news?
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