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Was Mary Sinless?
The Aristophrenium ^ | 12/05/2010 | " Fisher"

Posted on 12/05/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by RnMomof7

............The Historical Evidence

The Roman Catholic Church claims that this doctrine, like all of their other distinctive doctrines, has the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” (contra unanimen consensum Patrum).[10] They argue that what they teach concerning the Immaculate Conception has been the historic belief of the Christian Church since the very beginning. As Ineffabilis Deus puts it,

The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God… has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin… and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts.[11]

However, the student of church history will quickly discover that this is not the case. The earliest traces of this doctrine appear in the middle ages when Marian piety was at its bloom. Even at this time, however, the acceptance of the doctrine was far from universal. Both Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the immaculate conception. The Franciscans (who affirmed the doctrine) and the Dominicans (who denied it, and of whom Aquinas was one) argued bitterly over whether this doctrine should be accepted, with the result that the pope at the time had to rule that both options were acceptable and neither side could accuse the other of heresy (ironic that several centuries later, denying this doctrine now results in an anathema from Rome).

When we go further back to the days of the early church, however, the evidence becomes even more glaring. For example, the third century church father Origen of Alexandria taught in his treatise Against Celsus (3:62 and 4:40) that that the words of Genesis 3:16 applies to every woman without exception. He did not exempt Mary from this. As church historian and patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly points out,

Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2.35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.”[12]

Also, it must be noted that it has been often pointed out that Jesus’ rebuke of Mary in the wedding of Cana (John 2:1-12) demonstrates that she is in no wise perfect or sinless. Mark Shea scoffs at this idea that Mary is “sinfully pushing him [Jesus] to do theatrical wonders in John 2,” arguing that “there is no reason to think [this] is true.”[13] However, if we turn to the writings of the early church fathers, we see that this is precisely how they interpreted Mary’s actions and Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of her. In John Chrysostom’s twenty-first homily on the gospel of John (where he exegetes the wedding of Cana), he writes,

For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?” (Matt. xii.48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion… He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.[14]

Now why on earth would Jesus care for the salvation of Mary’s soul at this point in time if she was already “preventatively” saved through having been immaculately conceived, as was claimed earlier? That does not make any sense, whatsoever. Likewise, Theodoret of Cyrus agrees with John Chrysostom in saying that the Lord Jesus rebuked Mary during the wedding at Cana. In chapter two of his Dialogues, he writes,

If then He was made flesh, not by mutation, but by taking flesh, and both the former and the latter qualities are appropriate to Him as to God made flesh, as you said a moment ago, then the natures were not confounded, but remained unimpaired. And as long as we hold thus we shall perceive too the harmony of the Evangelists, for while the one proclaims the divine attributes of the one only begotten—the Lord Christ—the other sets forth His human qualities. So too Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, at one time calling Himself Son of God and at another Son of man: at one time He gives honour to His Mother as to her that gave Him birth [Luke 2:52]; at another He rebukes her as her Lord [John 2:4].[15] And then there is Augustine of Hippo, whom many Roman Catholic apologists attempt to appeal to for their belief in the immaculate conception. They like to quote a portion of chapter 42 of his treatise, On Nature and Grace, where Augustine states,

We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.[16]

However, those who quote this passage miss the point of what Augustine is trying to communicate. He was trying to refute the Pelagian heretics (who were the ones who were claiming that Mary—among other biblical characters—were sinless, since they denied the depravity of man). The article explaining Augustine’s view of Mary on Allan Fitzgerald’s Augustine Through the Ages helps clear up misconceptions regarding this passage:

His [Augustine's] position must be understood in the context of the Pelagian controversy. Pelagius himself had already admitted that Mary, like the other just women of the Old testament, was spared from any sin. Augustine never concedes that Mary was sinless but prefers to dismiss the question… Since medieval times this passage [from Nature and Grace] has sometimes been invoked to ground Augustine’s presumed acceptance of the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is clear nonetheless that, given the various theories regarding the transmission of original sin current in his time, Augustine in that passage would not have meant to imply Mary’s immunity from it.[17]

This same article then goes on to demonstrate that Augustine did in fact believe that Mary received the stain of original sin from her parents:

His understanding of concupiscence as an integral part of all marital relations made it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that she herself was conceived immaculately. He… specifies in [Contra Julianum opus imperfectum 5.15.52]… that the body of Mary “although it came from this [concupiscence], nevertheless did not transmit it for she did not conceive in this way.” Lastly, De Genesi ad litteram 10.18.32 asserts: “And what more undefiled than the womb of the Virgin, whose flesh, although it came from procreation tainted by sin, nevertheless did not conceive from that source.”[18]

As can be seen here, these and many other early church fathers[19] did not regard Mary as being sinless or immaculately conceived. It is quite clear that the annals of church history testify that Rome cannot claim that this belief is based upon the “unanimous consent of the fathers,” since the belief that Mary was sinless started out among Pelagian heretics during the fifth century and did not become an acceptable belief until at least the beginning of the middle ages.

Conclusion

As has been demonstrated here, neither scripture nor church history support the contention of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary was sinless by virtue of having been immaculately conceived. In fact, Rome did not even regard this as an essential part of the faith until the middle of the nineteenth century. This should cause readers to pause and question why on earth Rome would anathematize Christians for disbelieving in a doctrine that was absent from the early church (unless one wants to side with the fifth century Pelagians) and was considered even by Rome to be essential for salvation until a century and a half ago. Because Rome said so? But their reasons for accepting this doctrine in the first place are so demonstrably wrong. After all, they claim that this was held as divinely revealed from the very beginning, even though four and a half centuries’ worth of patristic literature proves otherwise. This ought to be enough to cast doubt not only on Rome’s claims regarding Mariology, but their claims to authority on matters of faith and morals in general.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicbashing; idolatry; marianobsession; mary; worship
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; wmfights; Cronos; Iscool; 1000 silverlings; editor-surveyor; metmom; ...
Wmfights started asking this question a few years ago and the silence from dozens of Roman Catholics has been thunderous.

Thank you for the recognition, but I was really only one of many Evangelical Christians who noticed that the RC's do not know The Gospel and when it is preached to them they scoff at it and call those who believe it foolish. The shame of it is their church does such a poor job of teaching what is actually in Scripture they don't realize that they are on the wrong side of the Cross because of this.

Believing The Gospel with no "ands", "buts", or "maybes" is the foundation of Christianity.

1,861 posted on 12/09/2010 10:27:25 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: 1000 silverlings; UriÂ’el-2012; Gamecock; Grizzled Bear; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; ...

Making blanket statements and assumptions about people and passing them off as true, and then asking people why they believe it or if they agree with the other’s alleged position (which has been misrepresented) is flame baiting and finessing the guidelines.

GB is right that it falls into the *Have you stopped beating your wife yet?* kind of question.

The only reason I can think of to do something like that is to set someone up for an abuse report. I guess the inequity of chastisements between the Catholics and the non-Catholics must be really irritating some and they are trying to alter the situation.


1,862 posted on 12/09/2010 10:28:44 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The fact that supposed "conservatives" applaud this communistic blueprint is nauseating.

54% of Catholics voting for Barry is no surprise.

The Constitution is about as important to them as God's Word.

Don't look to God, look to the church; don't embrace the Constitution, embrace government - the mindset of the RCC, the anti-Word organization.
1,863 posted on 12/09/2010 10:29:43 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: metmom
That says Paul was blameless as to the Law -- not the Pharisees as a class.
1,864 posted on 12/09/2010 10:30:45 AM PST by maryz
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

The typos creep in sometimes because of the M.S. My brain thinks one thing and my fingers type another. The strangest one was when I did could for called. I usually notice and change it. This time I did not catch it. Thanks for pointing that out. What is worse is when I am speaking to somebody and I know the word I want to say. I can even picture it in my mind. But it will not move down to my tongue. So I stand there sputtering like an inarticulate idiot growing more and more frustrated. No doubt witnessing my distress would give you cause for enjoyment and be evidence of my sin of being Catholic.

May the Lord deal with you with the same grace and mercy as you show others.


1,865 posted on 12/09/2010 10:31:11 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: metmom
*The only reason I can think of to do something like that is to set someone up for an abuse report*

worth repeating

1,866 posted on 12/09/2010 10:31:53 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: metmom
It’s possible to keep the Law, on the outside.

Keeping the Law "on the outside" isn't keeping the Law.

1,867 posted on 12/09/2010 10:32:48 AM PST by maryz
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To: the_conscience; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; ...
It is fascinating that Romanists see the Gospel as a set of books.

Do you belong to one of these strange cults which rejects Jesus Christ and chooses instead to worship St. Paul? Sts. Peter and Paul both wrote about this.

They see it [the Gospels] as a “to-do manual”.

Do you have any idea how telling this statement is?

Here is a snippet of what the non-Christians who choose to knowingly ignore the Words of our Lord and Savior DON'T DO:

Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

[16] By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24] Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, [25] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
-- Matthew 7:16-25

[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matthew 28:19-20)

[16] You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [17] These things I command you, that you love one another. [18] If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you. [19] If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [20] Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
-- John 15:16-20

Let’s pray God opens they eyes and ears to know it has nothing to do with doing.

Non-Christians whose religious beliefs "have nothing to do with doing" are going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise:

[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
-- Matthew 25:31-46


1,868 posted on 12/09/2010 10:33:21 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Alex Murphy; RnMomof7; Cronos; Ann Archy; metmom
"What is it with Catholics that they cannot answer that question?? Really....have you EVER known a Protestant that couldn’t answer what the Gospel is?? Catholics must be ashamed of the Gospel!"

FWIW, we live to be able to tell unbelievers The Gospel. We support missionaries in some of the darkest areas of the world so they can tell people The Gospel. These same missionaries are being persecuted and killed for preaching The Gospel.

1,869 posted on 12/09/2010 10:33:50 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Cronos; 1000 silverlings; RnMomof7; metmom; wmfights; Gamecock; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; ...

No, I mean what I wrote. The Orthodox Presbyterian Church, a Godly, Scripture-based denomination which kneels to none but Christ.

Thanks again for giving me the occasion to post the website...

http://www.opc.org

Here’s a tip. If you go to the link, you will find an answer to the question which seems to escape every Roman Catholic on these threads — what is the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ?


1,870 posted on 12/09/2010 10:34:21 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Ann Archy; RnMomof7; InvisibleChurch; 1000 silverlings
DO NOT post to me anymore...I have had it with all of you anti-Catholics!

Promise?

Although one wonders why you are here. This wasn't posted as a Catholic thread or by a Catholic and yet, here you be....

1,871 posted on 12/09/2010 10:36:48 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RobRoy
Actually, Mary's sinlessness and Perpetual Virginity are doctrines of Western Church and beliefs (though not defined as doctrines) of the Eastern Church. That's not what the original question was about.
1,872 posted on 12/09/2010 10:38:51 AM PST by maryz
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Do you believe that Jesus Himself is the embodiment of Good News?


1,873 posted on 12/09/2010 10:39:50 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: metmom

well she should leave, as should all the rest that can’t discern theology from their ample backsides


1,874 posted on 12/09/2010 10:39:55 AM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: wagglebee

Gee how did all that filthy rag stuff get in there???


1,875 posted on 12/09/2010 10:40:45 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: maryz

That’s why Jesus said that a person’s righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.


1,876 posted on 12/09/2010 10:40:56 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: lastchance
May the Lord deal with you with the same grace and mercy as you show others.

If that were true of any of us, we'd all be in trouble. Thankfully, God extends boundless mercy to those, like me, who don't deserve it.

God's blessings and strength to you in your illness.

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." -- Phil. 4:13

1,877 posted on 12/09/2010 10:42:32 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: maryz

That’s why Jesus said that a person’s righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.

And that’s why works don’t save. If the motivation isn’t right, they’re worthless, even though they may be technically correct.

It’s the heart attitude not the perfection of works.

Even Lot was called *righteous*, hardly a term I’d use for him.

If someone is doing works to earn salvation, they are doing it for the wrong reason. That’s why works don’t save.


1,878 posted on 12/09/2010 10:43:34 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: InvisibleChurch
For her to be sinless, her mom and dad had to be sinless as well

Huh? Do you base this on something or did you come up with it all by yourself?

1,879 posted on 12/09/2010 10:44:17 AM PST by maryz
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To: wagglebee; the_conscience; metmom; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; ...
Do you belong to one of these strange cults which rejects Jesus Christ and chooses instead to worship St. Paul Mary, and other deceased humans? (and kisses paintings and statues)
1,880 posted on 12/09/2010 10:44:33 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Obamacare is America's kristallnacht !!)
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