Posted on 11/21/2010 7:43:56 PM PST by bibletruth
Praise God for 5 point Calvinism
Jesus Christ affirms TULIP in the Scriptures. Hey, Catholics, these are all in your Old Testament Scriptures (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John).
The offer of salvation is universal. The means is faith - do you believe God, or not? If you believe, you will be saved. If not, you will be condemned. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, not grace thru election.
“Verse 4. Who will have all men to be saved. That is, it is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word will cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of any one. Thus it may be said of God that he “wills” that his creatures may be happy—because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness—though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy. God wills that sickness should be relieved, and sorrow mitigated, and that the oppressed should go free, because it is agreeable to his nature; though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to produce it. A parent wills the welfare of his child. It is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires; and he makes every needful arrangement for it. If the child is not virtuous and happy, it is his own fault. So God wills that all men should be saved. It would be in accordance with his benevolent nature. He has made ample provision for it. He uses all proper means to secure their salvation. He uses no positive means to prevent it, and if they are not saved it will be their own fault. For places in the New Testament where the word here translated “will” (\~yelw\~) means to desire or wish, Luke 8:20; 23:8; John 16:19; Galatians 4:20; Mark 7:24; 1 Corinthians 7:7; 11:3; 14:5; Matthew 15:28. This passage cannot mean, as many have supposed, that God wills that all kinds of men should be saved, or that some sinners of every rank and class may be saved, because
(1.) the natural and obvious interpretation of the language is opposed to such a sense. The language expresses the desire that “all men” should be saved, and we should not depart from the obvious sense of a passage unless necessity requires it.
(2.) Prayer and thanksgiving 1 Timothy 2:1 are directed to be offered, not for some of all ranks and conditions, but for all mankind. No exception is made, and no direction is given that we should exclude any of the race from the expressions of our sympathy, and from an interest in our supplications. The reason given here for that prayer is, that God desires that all men should be saved. But how could this be a reason for praying for all, if it means that God desired only the salvation of some of all ranks?
(3.) In 1 Timothy 2:5,6, the apostle gives reasons showing that God wished the salvation of all men, and those reasons are such as to prove that the language here is to be taken in the most unlimited sense. Those reasons are,
(a) that there is one God over all, and one Mediator between God and men—showing that God is the Father of all, and has the same interest in all; and
(b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all—showing that God desired their salvation. This verse proves
(1.) that salvation is provided for all —for if God wished all men to be saved, he would undoubtedly make provision for their salvation; and if he had not made such provision, it could not be said that he desired their salvation, since no one can doubt that he has power to provide for the salvation of all;
(2.) that salvation should be offered to all men—for if God desires it, it is right for his ministers to announce that desire, and if he desires it, it is not proper for them to announce anything contrary to this;
(3.) that men are to blame if they are not saved. If God did not wish their salvation, and if he had made no provision for it, they could not be to blame if they rejected the gospel. If God wishes it, and has made provision for it, and they are not saved, the sin must be their own—and it is a great sin, for there is no greater crime which a man can commit than to destroy his own soul, and to make himself the eternal enemy of his Maker.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002
Ping to post 101
Since our pastor is doing a series of sermons from Proverbs, forgive me for quoting:
20 Wisdom cries aloud in the street,
in the markets she raises her voice;
21at the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
at the entrance of the city gates she speaks:
22”How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing
and fools hate knowledge?
23If you turn at my reproof,behold, I will pour out my spirit to you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused to listen,
have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
25because you have ignored all my counsel
and would have none of my reproof,
26I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you
27when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.
28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me.
29Because they hated knowledge
and did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 would have none of my counsel
and despised all my reproof,
31therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way,
and have their fill of their own devices.
32For the simple are killed by their turning away,
and the complacency of fools destroys them;
33but whoever listens to me will dwell secure
and will be at ease, without dread of disaster.”
1 My son, if you receive my words
and treasure up my commandments with you,
2making your ear attentive to wisdom
and inclining your heart to understanding;
3yes, if you call out for insight
and raise your voice for understanding,
4if you seek it like silver
and search for it as for hidden treasures,
5then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.
Proverb 1 & 2
The offer of salvation is universal. The means is faith - do you believe God, or not? If you believe, you will be saved. If not, you will be condemned. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, not grace thru election.
Again, I see that you have zero substantiation for any of your claims.
I usually don't debate with Cut & Pasters because I would rather have a discussion with people who are capable of thinking and responding to questions, rather than searching around on the web to find a fellow traveller who isn't around to defend their published claims.
You have been asked numerous times to square your claims that the dead can bring themselves to life, freely shed their enmity to God, seek when they don't want to, understand when the Scriptures are closed to them, and believe in that which they find is foolish and incomprehensible. Instead, like some robot which can't process the myriad of passages and teachings that counter the programmed claims, we witness a reboot that keeps repeating the same unsubstantiated lie as if repeating it enough will make it come true.
Like Paul and Barnabas maybe its time to shake the dust from my sandals and let you keep relying on your own conjured up faith in whatever god hasn't offended you sufficiently.
1. Corinthians Ch. 4
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
I am not a theologian, I just know from my own experience that was a time when I had no fear of God and no realization of spiritual truth but by grace can I now see.
Hmm... :)
I’m hardly a cut & paster. In fact, I seem to be someone you cannot refute.
“Again, I see that you have zero substantiation for any of your claims.”
You mean my claim that we are saved by grace thru faith? Ever read Ephesians? Let me cut & paste the word of God for you:
“8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Please note that it is salvation that is the gift, not faith - as the Greek makes clear.
How about Romans?
“For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” - Romans 3
I already cited John 3.
“You have been asked numerous times to square your claims that the dead can bring themselves to life...”
Already did - the Prodigal Son (Luke 15): 17”But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you...24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.”
The father doesn’t kidnap the son, but the son decides to turn from his sin and go to his father.
Are you troubled by my saying it is by believing we received God’s gift of salvation?
“Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
“By believing you may have life”, not, “you may be given life that you can believe’!
“Like Paul and Barnabas maybe its time to shake the dust from my sandals and let you keep relying on your own conjured up faith in whatever god hasn’t offended you sufficiently.”
I suggest you take up running and get your sandals out of town, for your claims are not based on scripture, but pride.
Where the word of God says we are given life so we can believe?
Where does the word of God say we are given saving faith as a gift?
Where does the word of God say life precedes repentance?
When the jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”, what does Paul say? “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
That is not Calvinism, but it is the Gospel. The Gospel - the Good News - is not that we must wait and see if God chose to give us salvation as an individual, but that “the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10
“21And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’” - Acts 2
“24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” - John 5
“Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said to him, “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.”
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Yes, I’m cutting and pasting the word of God. Feel free to refute me - FROM THE WORD OF GOD.
“[Calvinism] is not merely the hope of true religion in the world: it is true religion in the world — as far as true religion is in the world at all.” — B.B. Warfield
Why were Lot and his family spared? Noah? Why was David "beloved of God?" Moses? These men, though fallible and sinful, had a "heart for God."
Your deceptions are intentional, feeble and sinful. Even Jesus called evil by its true name, and even Satan knows how to quote scripture; often to support his lies.
Whining to the Admin Mods won't cut you any slack when you stand before the Throne and account for what you've done with His Word. I attack not you, but the evil you do in His precious Name. May He forgive you.
;-\
Next question: Why preach the Gospel?
Those that are foreordained as the elect will be saved regardless. Those that aren’t, won’t. Simple as that. Preaching is pointless.
Thanks for the effort but, unfortunately, it does not help me. As I see it, those that are foreordained as the elect will be saved regardless. Those that aren’t, won’t. Simple as that. Preaching is pointless.
But you have a most novel approach to the delineation of the Old and New Testaments and how that relates to election. Fascinating! I will have to think on that a while.
I translate your response as 1) an unwillingness to apply the Solominic principle that a soft answer breaks the bone (one of my favorite passages, BTW), and 2), an unwillingness or an inability to recognize which thread you’re on. This thread was started by a Calvinist to celebrate God’s undeserved grace toward us, as understood by Calvinists, who relish as the song of our life that God has shown mercy toward us, the worst and most stubborn of sinners. You, sir (or ma’am), are the interloper, not I.
So, if you think it’s about pride, that only reflects 1) your misunderstanding of our belief, and 2), your lack of direct knowledge concerning our hearts and lives. You judge us falsely, and you angrily ask us to accept this misjudgment in silence, as if it were true. It is not true, and the mercy of God is nothing to be silent about. We who accept the straightforward teaching of Scripture concerning election are no more prideful about it than the blind man Jesus healed in the temple was “proud” Jesus chose him for healing. Do you agree he wasn’t proud? According to you, he should have been, because he is us, undeserving, helpless, and in despair. Jesus gave us our sight, and we love him for it, and you fault us for that. But how is that pride? You are so wrong about us it boggles the mind.
As for the thief on the cross, you have already admitted that if God gives a man faith, it is indeed the man’s faith. A gift given becomes the property of the one to whom it is given. But a gift is still a gift, and faith is a gift, and the ultimate credit goes to the giver, not the receiver.
Still, I am troubled by your statement that Jesus said “your faith has saved you” to the thief on the cross. I am embarrassed because I assumed you were quoting accurately, and I didn’t check it out like I should have. Having gone back to the passage, I cannot find that quote anywhere in the story of the thief on the cross. If you would be kind enough to share with me just where that quote may be found in connection with the thief on the cross, I’d be most grateful.
And so long as we’re on faith, try this:
Luke 22:32 “But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”
To whom does Jesus pray for Peter’s faith? None but God. Why does Jesus pray to God, why do any of us pray to God? Because God and only God has the power to answer such a prayer. Jesus is here declaring that God can and will prevent Peter’s faith from failing. It is truly Peter’s faith, because God gave it to him. But it is not sustained by the natural powers of Peter, but by the mercy of God in keeping Peter faithful. Then, as Paul says, all pride, all boasting is excluded.
So that’s all I’m asking, Gargantua, is don’t tell me what only God and I know about what’s in my heart, and why I love so much these wonderful teachings of Scripture. If you are convinced I am wrong, then please do rebuke me, but only according to the pattern of a Christian:
2 Thessalonians 3:15 “Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.”
And …
2 Timothy 2:24-25: “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”
Nevertheless, if you still feel inclined to punish me for having dared to speak as a Calvinist on a Calvinist thread, if you must put me in my place by unleashing the treasuries of your superior knowledge upon me, get on with it. I am sure it will make me a better person.
1) I just reread 1 Corinthians 9 in it’s entirety, and it still looks to me like Paul is talking primarily about the ministry of the Gospel and the rewards associated with that as the basis for his personal discipline against his earthy appetites. The context is definitely not individual salvation. If you're convinced otherwise, make a detailed argument, but please don't ask me to accept a general assertion that totally ignores multiple obvious references to Paul's ministration of the Gospel and the rewards associated with that ministry.
2) I don't do genealogical arguments, and Petrine succession is precisely that, and necessarily so. I will instead direct you to a good discussion which I am relatively certain you will consider old hat. Be that as it may. I don’t do infinite loops either. I have a day job, after all. Perhaps when I retire … Anyway, here’s the site:
How Reliable Is Roman Catholic History?
3) I will address your point on authority. All Christians do have a single point of unified authority, the risen Jesus. He is not hypothetical, but more perfectly real than any institutional counterpart could ever be. Furthermore, he is not incompetent to administer and preserve his own church, and the idea that some human intermediary must be there to help him coalesce the exercise of authority in his church runs contrary to the risen Jesus pictured in the Apocalypse, as one who was busily rewarding some churches for their faithfulness and threatening others with dissolution, all without so much as a whisper of Peter's voice or office, but as something he was quite able to do on his own. Believers have no need for any master but Jesus (as he said), because His sheep will always hear his voice (as he said). Peace, SR
Blahh.
:-|
Your harsh, unloving, arrogant, condescending tone displayed in this post and many others betrays the Name you claim....
“But a gift is still a gift, and faith is a gift...”
Please show me one passage that says saving faith is a gift given by God to enable belief.
Nevermind that it's nowhere in Scripture.
To them who have an ear, listen! He who has faith in God's Son is saved. Having something is not an act, it is a state of being. That's what these deceived, prideful, "God chose me, not them!" Calavinists refuse to relinquish back to God, who IS the author of every good thing.
;-/
“8But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.” - Matt 8
“9When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” - Luke 7
Odd, isn’t it. Jesus gave the Centurion faith, and then marveled at its extent! But what Jesus said was “found”, not “given”. I don’t know how anyone can read that passage and conclude that faith is something God provides, rather than a response from inside us.
Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
The error of Calvinism starts with the doctrine of total depravity - that since we are ‘dead’ in our sin, we are unable to respond to the gift of God’s grace. All the other errors flow from this premise, which is not found in scripture. But like the Prodigal Son, we’re ‘dead’ because we are alienated from God. And like him, we can respond to God’s grace - or not.
Jesus founded His Church on St. Peter and I am not one to argue with God on this matter! I can prove it historically and through Scriptures. There was never a dispute of this fact in the first centuries of the Church...
“It is to Peter himself that He says; “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church (Matt 16:18).” —St. Ambrose of Milan, On Twelve Psalms 40:30+. J1261, 387 A.D.
“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness, that is the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the CHURCH has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails...He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me.” -—St. Jerome, Letter to Pope Damasus 15:2, J1346,1346a, 374 A.D.
“In the same reign of Claudius, the all good and gracious providence which watches over all things guided Peter, the great and mighty one of the Apostles, who, because of his virtue, was the spokesman for all the others to Rome” -—Eusebius, History of the Church 2:14:6. J651dd, 300 A.D.
You can follow Calvin’s teaching, that is your choice; but I will stick to St. Peter and the Church which has withstood 2000 years of abuse from both within and without. This longevity is only possible through God’s divine hand.
Peace.
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