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To: metmom

Let’s take a look at two of your verses and put them into Biblical context. I am not trying to force you to believe something, just showing you that there can be alternative conclusions, OK?

I am not looking to injure your beliefs or testimony. This is, for me, a discussion not an argument or fight.

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “... Whoever has seen me has seen the Father...”

Acts 7:55, “But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.”

What did Stephen see? Don’t interpret or attempt to reconcile the two passages at first. Just view them for what they say.

Clearly they are open to interpretation. If you reject the Trinity you see that Stephen saw Jesus Christ and God (not Jesus Christ, but possibly appearing similar or like Jesus Christ): Two personages, not one.

To view those verses that way is not illogical, just not in keeping with what you believe to be true and that’s OK.

Trinitarians reconcile the two by making Stephen’s vision allegorical and not physical, that is “standing on the right hand” isn’t a location, but a metaphor. That’s OK, too.

Each of us has to decide for ourselves which one makes more sense. That confusion exists tells us that there is more to salvation than currently meets the eye. I believe that Jesus doesn’t lie and neither does Stephen. Jesus (the Son of God) and God (the Father, His Father) are not one and the same. I choose the iota. http://www.xefer.com/2002/10/iota

Let’s look at Luke 1:34-35

34And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

35And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy— the Son of God.

Here’s Young’s Literal Translation:

34 And Mary said unto the messenger, ‘How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?’

35 And the messenger answering said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;

The word being translated as “virgin” really means “man” and in this context - “husband”. See here: http://biblos.com/luke/1-34.htm

Mary understands the Angels message to be imminent conception and replies, logically, how can I a human woman and a virgin be pregnant without sexual intercourse with my husband Joseph. This is logical on its face and also proper given that Mary knows the prophecies regarding a soon to come Messiah - a man in the flesh - that will redeem Israel.

The Angel corrects her explaining the method: Luke 1:35

Take a look here at the Greek used: http://biblos.com/luke/1-35.htm

We don’t know the method, but it is miraculous as are all God’s actions. The Greek word used to describe the action is “procreate”. Note also that the scripture is specific. This is God Most High acting and not the Lord God.

You don’t have to agree, you just can see that there are logical and faithful God-loving interpretations that are different from what you believe.

Imagine how this story must have sounded to a Greek speaking Jew. Holy-begotten means “sacred procreation”.


880 posted on 11/14/2010 6:02:33 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD; metmom; reaganaut; Godzilla; Colofornian; Tennessee Nana; xzins; SZonian; ejonesie22; ...
"You don’t have to agree, you just can see that there are logical and faithful God-loving interpretations that are different from what you believe." 1010rd

The Pharisees lved God in Jesus's day, with a zeal unmatched even by devout Mormons! But they were wrong and on the highway to Hell. You attempt to gray the meaning so a twisted perspective has room to fester. Satan uses that technique. But the Bible gives its own true meaning into the seeking heart, so let’s read what the Gospel of John has to show us. Pay attention to what the witnesses, the 'God loving' Jews to whom Jesus spoke, say He was doing in their eyes and ears ... I've underlined it for you:

John 10: 24-30 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.I and my Father are one.

Verse 31: Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Verses 32 - 33 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Verses 36 - 38 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Verse 39: Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand

Read then the first fourteen verses of chapter eleven: Because God the Father Almighty was/is/ever shall be in Jesus as a glorified man, He could calls Lazarus’s state of being dead in the body merely being asleep [see I Thess 4 for Paul‘s use of the same meaning]. Jesus said He and The Father are One, not two in common purpose but ONE, as in The Same Being. And He worked the works God in Him showed Him to do for the Glory of God by the Glory of God in The Son. [God’s perspective of time is not linear, Jesus as God in a man walked among us having made Himself a little lower than the angels: Hebrews 2:7 - 9] This dual state of being in God The Father Almighty and God The Father Almighty being in Him is possible only by the work of the Holy Spirit OF GOD. God raises the dead, as shown in passages in the Tanahk. Jesus proclaimed to the Pharisees that He IS God with them; the eleventh chapter confirms God with us

884 posted on 11/14/2010 7:16:38 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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