Nice cherrypicking, Stourme.
A compliment, though: At least you picked the right chapters to focus on...if you were going to try to do some kind of "statistical analysis" of who would retain new life/consummate salvation.
What's interesting is that you easily found the two chapters mentioning a still general term Jesus uses of "few", but somehow in your "statistical analysis" you skipped over the one verse that actually provides a % for us (Matt. 25:2).
It's not as if you missed Matt. 25. Why didn't you cite v. 2? Was that a deliberate skip-over? Was it because it didn't match your theme scheme?
Here's Matt 25:2: Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
That's a 50% ratio, Stourme.
So how do we reconcile the 50% of Matt 25:2 with the "few" of Matt. 7 & Luke 13?
It's simple. The "few" of Matt. 7 & Luke 13 is against the backdrop of humanity -- the humanity's that ever lived...and the humanity that as we move closer to the days when Jesus returns...it'll be darker than ever...(see Matthew 24).
The 50% figure is in ratio to the people who go out to meet the Bridegroom. These are people who have been wanting and waiting to see Him. They're not the type of people who are going to flee in fear when Jesus returns. IOW, I'm pretty sure we can discount the "unchurched" from even being a part of this ratio (on either side).
What's interesting, Stourme, is that in Matt. 25...the 50% of people anticipating Jesus' return are locked out because they lack one readiness: Oil...a symbol in the Scriptures for the Holy Spirit. They lack the Holy Spirit in their lives.
* When the word "temple" is mentioned to Jews, they tend to think of a physical location.
* When the word "temple" is mentioned to Mormons, they tend to think of a physical location. [If you don't believe me, go to your Mormon bookstores and look over all the books on temples]
* When the word "temple" is mentioned to Christians, most tend to think of the flesh-and-blood Body of Christ, which is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
When Lds "apostles" through the years have described the Holy Spirit, you have Lds "prophets" like Joseph Smith and "apostles" like John Widtsoe who describe Him in impersonal terms and use the word "IT" in conjunction with Him. The Mormon Times to this very year makes the exact same mischaracterization of the Holy Spirit.
Likewise, the Mormon Encyclopedia -- and historically, Lds "apostles" like Heber C. Kimball -- have labeled the Holy Spirit to be a "man."
If you do what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and depersonalize the Holy Spirit...and just as bad, if you make the Holy Spirit out to be a "man" -- you show that Mormons don't even know who the Holy Spirit is!
Thus, it appears Lds would either fall into two categories: Either the 50% ratio anticipating to see Jesus, but will be locked out -- not even knowing the true Holy Spirit of which they try to speak. Or, realizing that they have not trusted Jesus' cross to cover their sins -- that they've tried to merit God's forgiveness, they run from Him and aren't even considered to be either of those 50% ratios...they would be part of the "broad" of Matthew 7.
I suppose I'll next have to trot out the verses from...
...from the D&C (76:52)...
...The Lds church, (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 253)
...Spencer W. Kimball (in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, several references)
...from Bruce McConkie (Mormon Doctrine, p. 295)
...from Lds "apostle" Boyd Packer...
...& other Lds "prophets"...
......who have all preached that you have to earn/merit your forgiveness.
| You are kidding; Right? [Elsie] |
Your 'question' seems to be mostly mere ASSUMPTION/strawman.
I'm limited in my total knowledge, but I tend to use a system to seek discernment. If one has a sound foundation in the Gospel, many difficult questions open up for discernment which the natural mind would not see. I will try to confine my remarks to italics, for clarity.
From your post:
A couple things surface.
a. Jesus makes it very clear that only a few people will actually be allowed into heaven. [There are at least two groups of humans found in the scenes in Heaven: the Bride is one, and we know these are the body of believers who have 'kept their lamps trimmed, ready for the sudden calling out'; the witnesses at the marriage of The Lamb and the Bride are another group, and that group is described as so great a number that they can't be counted ... using the math of the ancient world. It is vital to note--according to the story Jesus related regarding being at the wedding without the proper garment--that both of these groups, and in fact any human who is in Heaven, will be there ONLY because Christ died for them. There is no residency in Heaven for a human that is not covered by the Blood of the Lamb of God.
b. He's talking about people who believe. Who else would be calling him Lord and try to make the case that they have known him. But the Lord casts them off anyway. [You are conflating different scenes in the future and thus becoming confused on the fundamentals. A wedding and a judgment seat are two very different scenes. Those at the judgment who plea that they did such great works in His name yet are told to depart He never knew them are the ones who believed their works would earn them God's Grace when it came to the judgment. The Bride of Christ will not be standing to be judged.]
c. His audience is believers.[In some scenes the audience is believers, but in other scenes His audience are those who plead they are believers based upon their works which they deem good enough. A believer is one who faiths (yes, as in a verb, an action word) in Jesus Christ as their Deliverer, their Savior, their Redeemer, the One Whom sends His Holy Spirit to dwell in them for the remainder of their life as a believer, a faither.]The question (with a couple parts)
1. 2000 years of christianity; and for 1700 yrs the entire western world were believers; so who's getting cast out?
2. Among all the believers for 2000 yrs.. who are the few?
3. Since your beliefs are the same as all theirs... what's the difference?
To answer your questions and have the answers be intelligible requires some fundamental beliefs upon which one relies when trying to discern the Truth in a morass of fiction. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the message of God's Grace in Christ Jesus, is that in these last days, God pours His Spirit into those who trust in His atonement for their unworthiness to be residents in His presence (see Philippians 3:20). I sincerely hope you have read this far, because here's the Gospel of Grace in a nutshell, opened up to receive the meat of the gift: No man can be good enough to generate the nature of God in the human soul/spirit; Jesus walked totally righteous before humankind because His seed--the Holy Spirit of God Almighty--remained within Him until the moment God withdrew His Spirit from Jesus so that Jesus could die the death of one accused IN OUR PLACE. But the justification of God is by faith, so God raised Him up from death, justified and the Holy Spirit again indwelling Him. By faith we too have that same Holy Spirit come into our human spirit, in order to renew our soul to conform to the image of God's Son. It is a lifelong process this conforming, this trans-formative process accomplished by our obedience to His urging as He changes our want to so that we become a new creation in Christ Jesus.
Now to your questions, with my feeble efforts to answer in blue ... and your questions are formidable, and need answering especially in light of the topic of this thread and subsequent exchanges, so thank you for asking them:
1. 2000 years of christianity; and for 1700 yrs the entire western world were believers; so who's getting cast out? Being believers and being trusters are two distinctly different things. As you've read, the demons believe and tremble.
First, the Cross of Christ, the Redemption of 'faithers', reaches back to Adam, it is not a mere 2000 years segment. How? By faith: faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Recall what Jesus told the Jews who questioned Him, that those patriarchs 'rejoiced to see His day'.
Second, those who trust, who 'faithe' (verb, 'to faithe') in the Promises of God are the believers, not just those who mouth a belief in Whom Jesus was or is. A true faither has a daily walk in which he or she relies upon the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead their transformation from a child of Adam to a child of God. On my profile page, I tried to explain this word 'faithing' because it is an action word not a noun, as Jesus taught it and Paul and others like James explained it.
A Jew, prior to the birth of Jesus, was faithing in the Promises of God by trying to meet the lofty, unreachable in human effort, standard of the Law, the ten commandments. So powerful was this drive to live up to the standards set in the Ten Commandments that Jews followed along behind Paul and Silas trying to get Christians to live by the laws also, a feat which no human of int he 'strength of their flesh' can accomplish. It takes the nature of God to exhibit the life of God, and a Christian accomplishes this only when he or she allows His nature within them to direct the behavior of them. But in Him we have Liberty! The yolk is easy, the burden light, if we use Paul's suggestions for walking in the Spirit.Paul explained this faithing of the patriarchs by referencing Abraham who lived before the Law was given. It was by faith that Abraham was found righteous, not by works of the Law which had not yet been given. Abraham's faith was exhibited in his actions. The Prophet Joel offered that someday God would put inside faithers His Spirit, a new Spirit. After the Cross, descendants of Adam could then be renewed from within, by the indwelling presence of God's Spirit.
On a side note: It is interesting to notice how human Abraham and Sarah were, in that they doubted for a time that God was going to fulfill His promise, so they used Hagar as a surrogate to beget Ishmael. But God did follow through with His promise to Abraham and Sarah, with the birth of Isaac. And this child was precious to Abraham because he was the living proof of God fulfilling His Promises.
2. Among all the believers for 2000 yrs.. who are the few? You can figure this one out based upon the faithing technique described in the first answer. The smaller of the two groups who show up in Heaven are the Bride of Christ. These are they who trimmed their lamps and remained ready. Jesus used the allegory of Jewish wedding process when He designated this group. It is these of whom Paul writes in his IThess4 passage referring to the calling out, the rapture of the Church. A second group--still few compared to all of humankind--will also be at the wedding feast which follows the wedding. This group will not be the Bride, but they will be in Heaven because God finds they faithe in God's Promises even if they did not accept the Holy Spirit in their human spirit while alive on earth (think those who never heard the Gospel preached by mouth or by reading the scriptures).
3. Since your beliefs are the same as all theirs... what's the difference? At this point, do you still wish to assert 'your beliefs are the same as all theirs'? I think you know there are profound fundamental differences.