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To: Cronos
Again, this does not pan out in reality as is evidenced in history and in scripture. Let's deal with the scriptural aspects -- note in the Pauline Epistles how Paul sends letters to various missions admonishing them to stay true to the ONE faith. Note also that Paul writes to the Romans where he was not the apostle to spread the faith,

Obviously Paul was not the first to share the Gospel with them but he most assuredly went there with the intent to lead others to faith in Christ and to train them in the truths Jesus had revealed to him. See:

Romans 1:11-17
I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith. I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles. I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Their "rule of faith" was that they believed in the Gospel of Christ and followed their bishops who were expected to know -- hence the bishops kept in touch across the churches.

Those that could, read aloud to every church the writings that were circulated by the disciples. Many copies were obviously made so that each local church had what they needed. The bishops were appointed first of all by the apostles, and only after making sure the doctrine was fully understood and their lives were sold-out to Christ. The way the faith spread so rapidly, no one could keep track of everywhere that the name of Christ was heard. I'm sure the bishops would have liked to stay in touch, but without the means we have today, I seriously doubt they kept track of everyone. I fully believe in the spiritual body of Christ and we ARE already one in the faith. Just because we may not all speak the same language, wear the same clothes, conduct our worship in the same manner, doesn't mean we are not one in the Spirit because the Holy Spirit is who recognizes us - what's in our hearts - and he is who unites us.

I fully understand your need to assert what your church has concluded about its authority and you have bound yourself to it so you have no choice but to defend it. What I, instead, am trying to say is that we are not one because of the denominational labels we place on ourselves but rather by the faith that is within our hearts. We can be in unity of faith as we are all part of the universal body of believers in Christ. It is this that sets us apart, not what we call ourselves.

6,961 posted on 01/10/2011 7:14:30 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
  1. Paul's letter to the Romans. My point was that Paul was not the apostle who first went to the Romans, yet wrote to them an epistle advising... This is a strong indication of early Church "hierarchy" or "organization" which negates your statement So, no, I do not believe as you say that there was this ONE, TRUE, ONLY Church (singular). Rather there were many across the continent, all being established and peopled by genuine, born-again believers in Christ and the Bible became their "rule of the faith".
  2. Reading aloud -- true, yet remember that those writings were not uniformly available and writings are also liable to be distorted at times if one is not careful, especially in the pre-Internet days and as you point out, the Bishops were appointed by the Apostles.
  3. I seriously doubt they kept track of everyone. -- of "everyone" no, but don't forget that most of the conversions if not nearly all of them were in the cities of the Roman Empire or Parthian Empire. The faith expanded rapidly among the urbanites but the rural people (pagan = people of the fields, rural people) held out for longer.
  4. I fully believe in the spiritual body of Christ and we ARE already one in the faith. Just because we may not all speak the same language, wear the same clothes, conduct our worship in the same manner, doesn't mean we are not one in the Spirit because the Holy Spirit is who recognizes us - what's in our hearts - and he is who unites us. That feeling does you credit and since you hold to the Nicene Creed, I reciprocate the same feelings for you.
  5. I fully understand your need to assert -- I strongly resent that statement. I may not be very good at dogma or philosophy, but my post above was STRICTLY historical except for the note in the Pauline Epistles how Paul sends letters to various missions admonishing them to stay true to the ONE faith.. I intend limiting myself here to the historical sphere that I know well -- I will leave the philosophical, religious discussion to my betters. And in the historical sphere of facts one sees regular and strong communication in the Mediterranean continent -- one could send a message between Hadrians Wall and Ctesiphon in a week or two. Even in the Parthian Empire, which strung from the Tigris right up to the Uighur Empires in Zinjiang, communication was regular, predictable in time and accesible. Actually, going back, even the Empire of Cyrus the Great of Persia that stretched from India to Greece and Egypt did have excellent communication in a matter of weeks (Cyrus i.e. Khurosh inaugurated the pony mail!)
  6. What does this mean for the One True Church statement -- it means that:
    1. people throughout believed that they were part of the One true Church
    2. Were there a day-to-day orders? No -- and that was not true of the Church or even of government until the invention of the telegraph. Prior to that, there was regular communication.
    3. There was regular communication between bishops through the Roman and Parthian Empires, just as there were regular communication between Praefects and governors in the Roman, Parthian Empires. These were not of course yahoo Messenger level speed :) but would have been with a few weeks. As an aside, note that communication after the fall of the Roman Empire in 430 AD was WORSE -- the Pope in the 9th century was less able to communicate with bishops in Britain and Cyrene than his predecessor in the 1st century. In fact, by the 9th century, the Western and Eastern Churches were barely able to communicate due to language problems, which was not the case in the 1st and 2nd centuries.
    4. Now though the communication took weeks and with the back and forth, tossing out a bad priest could take some time, STILL people felt that connection to the ONE Church -- you see it in the beliefs of the Naimans, Mongols who were converted to Christianity in the 3rd-7th centuries, you see it in the 2000 year old Christian communities in Kerala, South India.
    5. Church bishops were responsible to God and administratively to the council, deferring to the bishops of the pentarchy.
    6. In those pre-Internet days, the ways to know that someone was telling you the truth was to ask him where he learnt His truth and go back in time to the source. This is borne out in how an Arab until the 70s would introduce him "I am Abu bin Mussa bin Muawiyah bin Kadeer bin ... " -- documents could be incorrect or spurious --> what proof do I have for this? I take the example of the Old Believers in Russia. The only way they knew something was correct was that this was what their bishops said and their bishops were entrusted as their shepherds
    7. The "Bible" was not compiled and there were a number of books circulating -- some valid and inspired, some valid and now we regard them as not canon (The SHepherd of Hermas etc), some were definitely spurious (The Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Thomas). The Bible or even the writings they gathered were not their "rule of faith" for the simple reason that they were not "verifiable", but their bishops and priests WERE. To all societies before the printing press, the oral instructor's worth and "verifiable ancestry" was far more important than any text he carried.
    8. The rule of faith was that they were people of the book, and they looked to their Bishop to shepherd them correctly.

6,979 posted on 01/11/2011 1:56:57 AM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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