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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
How about this: the Father is greater than I [John 14:28]?

Sure, but Jesus was obviously not splitting His "hypostatic union" (if I am using that correctly) and speaking in His "Divine-only" capacity. Just a few verses earlier He says:

John 14:9-14 : 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

This doesn't match a stand alone "the Father is greater than I"

5,695 posted on 12/21/2010 7:09:43 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
"[C]hrist’s saying that the Spirit “proceeds from the Father” and is sent to the world by both, the Father and Himself (John 15:26, 14:26; cf. Luke 11:13, Acts 2:33. Procession, subjection and objectively, is not energy, but a mode of existence of the Father and of the Spirit, exactly as birth is a mode of the existence of the Son, objectively, and of the Father, subjectively. Thus, the peculiar quality of the Holy Spirit is placed side by side with the peculiar qualities of the Father and the Son. Therefore, the Spirit is of an equal honor with the other two Persons, which would not be the case if He were the result or the product of an energy, when He would be inferior to them as the creators. This is why it is said of the Holy Spirit that when He comes to the world “He will convince the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment” (John 16:8) exactly as does the Son (cf. John 5:22,27,30, 8:16, 12:31), even though “He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare the things that are to come” (John 16:13-15). To this effect the Spirit “takes what is Christ’s (John 16:15),” who in turn has taken what is the Father’s (John 3:35, 6:37, 10:29, 13:3, 16:15). Indeed, the Son does not speak the words on His own authority (John 14:10), because His teaching is not His, but the Father’s who sent Him to the world (John 7:16, cf 3:34, 8:26,28,30, 12:49, etc.). Likewise the Spirit does not bear witness to the Father, but to the Son (John15:26), whom He glorifies (John 16:14). Now, this evidence shows clearly that consubstantiality and equality of honor go hand in hand with a successive order of the divine Persons which cannot be violated and which guards the peculiar attributes of each Person. It is exactly this order which has been revealed in the economy and from this we are guided to the ‘Theo-nomy’." Christos Sp. Voulgaris, The Biblical and Patristic Doctrine of the Trinity

This entire piece is worth reading, especially sec. 7 where he has a great discussion of the patristics of the Trinity. It was written by the Dean of the Theology School at the University of Athens. Here's a link:

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/voulgaris_trinity.html

5,699 posted on 12/22/2010 4:00:14 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Forest Keeper

Sure, but Jesus was obviously not splitting His "hypostatic union" (if I am using that correctly) and speaking in His "Divine-only" capacity. Just a few verses earlier He says: John 14:9-14 : 9...This doesn't match a stand alone "the Father is greater than I"

Of course it does. :) It implies, according to the Greek word used, that the Father is even more excellent that the Son. John 14:9-14 doesn't show otherwise. The excellence of the Father is not a stand-alone feature but an ongoing one of the New Testament.


5,727 posted on 12/22/2010 8:13:53 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; boatbums
How about this: the Father is greater than I [John 14:28]?

Sure, but Jesus was obviously not splitting His "hypostatic union" (if I am using that correctly) and speaking in His "Divine-only" capacity. Just a few verses earlier He says:

John 14:9-14 : 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

This doesn't match a stand alone "the Father is greater than I"

JOHN 17:
7 Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee;
8 for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
10 all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

"...that they may be one, even as we are one."

Are "they" to retain an individual identiry or are "they" to become God in the same manner you say Jesus is God?

Jesus did not ever claim to be God. Rather, He said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me,..." and this is the same he asks for you.

5,750 posted on 12/23/2010 8:44:14 AM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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