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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; boatbums
STF quoting Fulton Sheen but Calvin carried it so far as to rule out human merit.

FK-I think this statement does capture a core principle of the Apostolic Church, that of glorifying the merit of man.

How you came up with the idea of glorifying human merit out of this is beyond me?

Self denial is human merit. God does not force self denial on us,dear brother,or we would be robots.

Calvin wanted to pawn off his sins on God and say it it was part of God's will to support his extreme dualistic personality of monster and think by interpreting the Gospel according to his own will He was doing God's will.

Calvin was very muslim like in doing this because his view of God is dualistic

5,480 posted on 12/16/2010 3:34:24 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi; Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums
"How you came up with the idea of glorifying human merit out of this is beyond me?"

Got to say I agree with sfa, FK. You lost me on this one!

"Calvin was very muslim like in doing this because his view of God is dualistic."

More Manichean, sfa. In fact, I'd suggest that Calvinism really is more Manichean than Christian.

5,482 posted on 12/16/2010 3:54:06 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: stfassisi; kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; boatbums
SFA: Calvin wanted to pawn off his sins on God and say it it was part of God's will to support his extreme dualistic personality of monster and think by interpreting the Gospel according to his own will He was doing God's will. Calvin was very muslim like in doing this because his view of God is dualistic

Kolo: More Manichean, sfa. In fact, I'd suggest that Calvinism really is more Manichean than Christian.

I can only assume that the comparisons to dualism, Islam, and Manichaeism are founded in misperceptions that Calvinism stands for a God who is both evil and good, and that man has no personal responsibility for his own actions. Both are categorically false, of course, but I can understand these perceptions coming from faiths that are dualistic themselves in supporting both a sovereign God and a sovereign man, especially when it comes to salvation. Without man having the full power and control over his own destiny it is thought that God must therefore be to blame for sin and everything else.

So, accusations of dualism work both ways. But one thing that doesn't seem to fit here would be a claim of self-denial. I actually see quite the opposite in Apostolic faiths. No one gets to Heaven without first making free will wise choices and completing some requisite number and/or kinds of works. Where is the self-denial in that? Self-denial would be relying on Christ's righteousness, not one's own. That is why I used the phrase "glorifying the merit of man". If getting into Heaven is the name of the game, then it cannot be accomplished without the key ingredient of man's merit. That exposes the dualism of who is really in charge of the universe. Calvinists, at least, are very clear and consistent on that point. :)

5,561 posted on 12/18/2010 3:04:12 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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