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To: stfassisi; kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; boatbums
SFA: Calvin wanted to pawn off his sins on God and say it it was part of God's will to support his extreme dualistic personality of monster and think by interpreting the Gospel according to his own will He was doing God's will. Calvin was very muslim like in doing this because his view of God is dualistic

Kolo: More Manichean, sfa. In fact, I'd suggest that Calvinism really is more Manichean than Christian.

I can only assume that the comparisons to dualism, Islam, and Manichaeism are founded in misperceptions that Calvinism stands for a God who is both evil and good, and that man has no personal responsibility for his own actions. Both are categorically false, of course, but I can understand these perceptions coming from faiths that are dualistic themselves in supporting both a sovereign God and a sovereign man, especially when it comes to salvation. Without man having the full power and control over his own destiny it is thought that God must therefore be to blame for sin and everything else.

So, accusations of dualism work both ways. But one thing that doesn't seem to fit here would be a claim of self-denial. I actually see quite the opposite in Apostolic faiths. No one gets to Heaven without first making free will wise choices and completing some requisite number and/or kinds of works. Where is the self-denial in that? Self-denial would be relying on Christ's righteousness, not one's own. That is why I used the phrase "glorifying the merit of man". If getting into Heaven is the name of the game, then it cannot be accomplished without the key ingredient of man's merit. That exposes the dualism of who is really in charge of the universe. Calvinists, at least, are very clear and consistent on that point. :)

5,561 posted on 12/18/2010 3:04:12 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; boatbums
actually see quite the opposite in Apostolic faiths. No one gets to Heaven without first making free will wise choices and completing some requisite number and/or kinds of works. Where is the self-denial in that? Self-denial would be relying on Christ's righteousness, not one's own.

Well, first of all, do you know for sure who "went" to heaven and why? Will works of faith hurt?

Second, the self-denial is to not follow yourself as a measure but what Christ did, but imitating him. Imitation implies works of some kind, whether mental or physical works, it doesn't matter. It is an effort, a struggle (Slavonic podvig) to conform to Christ in faith and in everything else.

Those who rely, indeed excuse everything they do, on Christ's righteousness simply because they call on his name, are actually relying on their own and not his. They only use his name as an excuse for their doing whatever they want to do.

5,578 posted on 12/19/2010 7:25:32 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; boatbums

“”I can only assume that the comparisons to dualism, Islam, and Manichaeism are founded in misperceptions that Calvinism stands for a God who is both evil and good””

There is no misconceptions,fk. Calvin’s belief in double predestination is a dualistic God

FK-””That is why I used the phrase “glorifying the merit of man”. If getting into Heaven is the name of the game, then it cannot be accomplished without the key ingredient of man’s merit.””

Perhaps you don’t understand what the Church teaches regarding merit

From the Catechism...
MERIT
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59

2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.”60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.”62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63


5,602 posted on 12/19/2010 3:57:56 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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