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To: The Theophilus; annalex; kosta50; metmom; presently no screen name; 1000 silverlings; ...
The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ’s brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term "brethren." The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus’ stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ’s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as "brethren." The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Even if one belives in SOLA scriptura, there is no proof either way for or against.

However, if one lets go of the ego of SOLA mi, and reads what early Christians actually thought, then you have
>Hilary of Poitiers

"If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

  Athanasius

"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

  Epiphanius of Salamis

"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

"And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).

  Jerome

"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

"We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21).

  Didymus the Blind

"It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

  Ambrose of Milan

"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

  Pope Siricius I

"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

  Augustine

"In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

"It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

  Leporius

"We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary" (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

  Cyril of Alexandria

"[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing" (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).

  Pope Leo I

"His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained" (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Of course, if you think you know better than the Early Christians who I think were closer in time to know than someone 2000 years later...
4,189 posted on 12/02/2010 12:02:22 AM PST by Cronos (Et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis (And the word was made flesh, and dwelt amonst us))
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To: Cronos
if you think you know better than the Early Christians Catholics.

Why are you posting what Catholics say as proof of anything concerning God's Word? Perhaps you can dig up one, also, that it's deemed honorable to kiss the Koran.

Go back to when Jesus spoke about who His mother is and who His brothers are? And Matthew and Mark who said, Jesus, your mother is outside with your brothers and the other Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures from them concerning the names of Jesus' brothers.

Don't you think Jesus knows better than the men He created; such as the ones you list? Being so desperate to prove the RCC doctrine/tradition right and God's Word wrong is certainly not unique - but it does prove that it will be done according to God's Word as..."Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down.." Mark 7:13

You think the ALL KNOWING GOD might have known that man would try to override His Word with their doctrine/traditions?? If He said it - we know it will happen. And the RCC fulfilled Mark 7:13.
4,207 posted on 12/02/2010 1:04:30 AM PST by presently no screen name ("Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down.." Mark 7:13)
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To: Cronos
However, if one lets go of the ego of SOLA mi, and reads what early Christians actually thought, then you have...

...to also believe gnostics, heretics and others.

I think that it is cute that you will count Augustine when he allows for perpetual virginity, but will throw out everything else he says when it comes to soteriology and other doctrines Rome has rejected.

Many early Christians were also Premillennialists, and Augustine was once one, before he switched to what Rome now holds which is largely an Amillennial view. So if we look outside of Scripture, then which best represents the eschatology of Christ? Premil or Amil? (Sorry Preterists, you weren't well represented back then)

We stick with Sola Scriptura because God doesn't change, and neither does His revelation. The inspired texts locked in time serve that purpose well.

4,237 posted on 12/02/2010 6:58:38 AM PST by The Theophilus
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To: Cronos; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

And the Gospels, which were written even earlier, state that Joseph did not *know* Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus.

All four Gospel writers mention his brothers and sisters, two of them name them by name, and in a context that clearly indicates that they are Mary’s other children.

There is NO evidence in Scripture to support the speculation that Joseph was an older man or that he had been married before and had other children.

It is fascinating to watch Catholics demand a literal, word for word interpretation of Jesus’ teachings on His body and blood, and claim Scriptural evidence for that and condemn Protestants for not believing it, and then turn around and weasel out of the plain, literal, word for word reading of the passages concerning Jesus’ family and siblings.


4,245 posted on 12/02/2010 7:32:06 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos; The Theophilus; annalex; metmom; presently no screen name; 1000 silverlings
The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus’ stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century).

Early Christians, of every persuasion, the ones the closest to the original faith chronologically speaking, and certainly the closest culturally, never questioned that—even those who later split from the Church, including Luther himself, believed in the ever-virginity of Mary.

The people who lived in the environment where the original Christianity flourished, and spoke the language of the Bible as their common tongue, did not have a problem with that interpretation, but people living in 21st century and reading tainted translations made 2000 years later, say the ancients did not iomterpret their own language and scriptures correctly, neglecitng to even akcnowldge that even today in the Mediterranea region cousins and step-brothers are referred to as borthers or sisters.

4,289 posted on 12/02/2010 11:15:14 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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