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To: boatbums
"My simple point is that Luther was Roman Catholic and would have remained so if the Church had not excommunicated him."

The original point was that Luther was a godly man and then when evidence was submitted that he was indeed an evil vile man by today's standards the argument changed into Luther being a Catholic. Luther was excommunicated because he disagreed with the teachings of the Church putting him outside of the Communion of the Saints. One cannot argue that Luther was Catholic and not a Catholic or that everything good about him was limited to his anti-Catholicism and everything bad about his is a result of his Catholicism.

Further, those extolling the godliness of Luther have all espoused significant differences with his dogma in many areas implying or specifically stating that the godliness is only derived from his opposition to the Catholic Church. That is a vacuous argument and reinforces that those participating in attacks on Catholicism are doing so out of a visceral hatred of the Church and not on points of theology or dogma.

2,286 posted on 11/16/2010 7:14:14 PM PST by Natural Law (lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi)
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To: Natural Law; RnMomof7; metmom
One cannot argue that Luther was Catholic and not a Catholic or that everything good about him was limited to his anti-Catholicism and everything bad about his is a result of his Catholicism.

Well, believe it or not, I agree with that. I am not Lutheran nor affiliated with any specific denomination so I have no dog in the hunt, so to speak. But, by the same token, you must also accept that no man is either all good or all evil. Those who do identify with the Reformed denominations have never, as far as I have seen, proclaim that their founders were infallible, but rather men who felt in their hearts a calling from God to change what they believed had been corrupted by evil influences. I don't doubt for one minute that Luther, a devout Catholic priest, would have stayed in the Church had she shed those influences and returned to true Biblical orthodoxy. That the "powers that be" would not - even though I think Luther was and still is correct in his criticisms - repent of that wrong they had done gave him every reason to leave.

I would not ever consider returning to the Catholic religion because I, too, know the truth about the Gospel that it IS by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that I am saved and not by any works of righteousness that I may do.

I can't help but think that there is just this awful stubbornness or blindness that takes over people and places them in a kind of box. I see it as - and I know you ain't gonna like what I say - a brainwashing effect. I know because I was in it myself. I know the feeling I had when I was about thirteen and we had moved to a new base and I went to my first Mass in the base chapel. I got the timing wrong and instead of a Catholic Mass, I was sitting in a Protestant service. I was so worried that I had sinned but I didn't think I could get up and leave so I sat through the service. I remember the fear that I had done something wrong. I remember the shame in sneaking a half of a donut before Mass when I should have been fasting before communion. I remember confessing before the priest about taking a quarter from my Mom's purse when I was seven. I must have confessed it five or ten times, but I never felt cleansed. That is the kind of life that none of us who were in it want to return to. The guilt, the worry, the fear that I can never be good enough to go to heaven.

But, now, I do know that I am forgiven. I know that I need not ever fear and I know that my goodness or lack of it does not change the fact, and never will, that God loves me and has given me the gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ. I believe that people like Luther also saw the true light of the Gospel and I do not blame him for wanting to change what he saw that was wrong with the faith that he loved so dearly. He wasn't perfect, and none of us are, but he was a courageous man who God used to make a big difference in millions of lives. I respect that man.

2,308 posted on 11/16/2010 10:01:44 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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