Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
Let me know when that happens. I'd like to welcome you into the Catholic Church.
he that shall be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation: the Son of man also will be ashamed of him (Mark 8:38)sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you (1 Peter 3:15)
I am not ashamed of the gospel (Romans1:16)
You create a false distinction. Grace is most certainly unmerited favor of God given before we ask. But our reception of grace is to the capacity of our faith. He who does not have faith in the Holy Sacraments of the Church, for example, receives next to nil of that unmerited and superabundant grace, and in the case of you Protestants, does so on his own choosing. "Many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him" (John 6).
You: Eph 2:8-9
. What I explained to you is a full quote from Eph 2 on this matter,
[8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
Naturally, if you cut one verse out the rest might look like no works is involved in the salvation at all. Cut verse 8 and it would seem that faith is not needed either.
Protestantism is the dark art of lying about the Gospel, and believing their own lies.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
Indeed. Or in the words of the Council,
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
How does the context "show" that?
Yes. Or, as I said in the piost Belteshazzar liked so much, one can interpret the gospel as if Jesus had blood siblings by Mary, but he would be wrong in doing so.
This seems to indicate two things, no other explanation was needed (Jesus had brothers and sisters), AND certainly no theological meaning either way.
No, it simply indicates that "brother" is the correct period Greek term to describe a group of relatives sharing the household and close in age, and no refinement of the term is necessary.
perpetual virginity serves NO purpose and even if TRUE, was apparently irrelevant to the writers of the New Testament
Yes, you can say that. How Mary or any other saint lived her life is not the purpose of the gospels. We learn that from the Church as a part of Church history not as a part of the Gospel.
The only purpose I see is to maintain Mary's demi goddess status ...
It is a historical truth. It is not a tale told for a purpose. If I told you, for example, that Jefferson went to France, that would not alter anything in the Constitution. It is a historical fact. No matter what purpose it serves to tell it, is is a fact. One can use it for whaterver purpose he pleases.
If I have to believe something, it's safe to say I don't have evidence. If I do have evidence, then I know it for a fact and I don't have to have faith that it is so.
Your sophism is taking you in the wrong direction. I have asked for evidence on many an occasion by those who believe and I got excuses or worse, but no evidence. So far this lack of demonstrable evidence is 100%. If you think about it, rationally, it's a tall order to ask anyone to believe something just on your word. So I don't.
What evidence do you have that God revealed himself? If you have such evidence then please produce it. I am particularly interested to know how does one know it is God, and not the insanity, or better yet what is God (what is divine) so that we may positively identify him.
The Catholic church claims to have written the Bible. In the Catechism of the Catholic church, it deems it infallible.
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72
If one chooses to reject the Bible as inspired or without error, one is at odds with Catholic doctrine. That one is choosing to reject the Catholic church and what it has declared.
Not only that, if one rejects the written word as handed down by the church (allegedly) that Catholics claim is merely the transcribed teachings of its tradition, then one is also rejecting the tradition from which the written portion came.
If the transcribed portion is considered unreliable, the oral tradition from which is came is unreliable as well.
The only reason the Catholic church can make any claim to handing down the truth for so many centuries was because it was written down. If it weren't for the fact that what happened was transcribed, it would have been lost over the centuries. Tradition is not reliable enough and free enough from corruption over time.
Having the oldest documents to refer back to is what kept the truth from being lost, not tradition.
Sure there are many things not recorded in the Bible that happened, but that doesn't give anyone license to make things up, claim they happened, and declare them as fact. At that point, you might as well believe in the Easter Bunny. The Bible doesn't record that it isn't real. How can you say it's not?
That would be true if such were the case. But it's not. Ignorance of absolute truth does not allow us the freedom to invent truth, to create invisible and undetectable things and claim they exist. Our proofs must be compatible with our nature. We can't presume something exists unless we have evidence of it that is not only in our heads, but clearly demonstrable directly or indirectly.
Which blows the whole immaculate conception and perpetual virginity thing out of the water, along with praying to saints, holy water, mortal vs venial sins, and a whole host of other traditions which men have added to Scripture in the name of religion.
Because it happens to be the historical truth and our Church is a truth-telling institution.
Truth telling is not usually connected with the Roman church.
The major forgeries sold as truth by Rome to grab power and fortune include Pseudo–Isidorian Decretals, A.D. The Donation of Constantine and the Liber Pontificalis.
John Huss actually believed Romes guarantee of "safe passage" until they lit the flames at his feet.
Genesis says man was given a perfect start, God pronouncing all that He had made “very good”. (Gen. 1:31)
Mankind was given a mandate and the means of fulfilling it (Gen. 1:28) But Adam joined in rebellion against God and God issued a prophecy indicating how He would put down that rebellion and settle all issues raised by it. (Gen. 3:15)
It has taken these thousands of years but the development of the solution evidently has to take time.
How that prophecy in Gen. 3:15 would develop and take shape over time was only gradually revealed, even the angels desiring to see it’s outworking. (1 Peter 1:12)
Jesus called that solution “The Kingdom” and the news of it “Good News” because it would complete what was started there in Eden and end completely the rebellion. (Rev. 21:1-4)
INDEED.
Someone says to Jesus, “Your mother, YOUR brothers..”. They were brothers specific to him and Jesus makes a comparison of his mother, brothers and sisters by birth with those counted as such by doing God’s will.
It is not “mother and anepsios (cousin) and sisters”.
You create a false distinction. Grace is most certainly unmerited favor of God given before we ask. But our reception of grace is to the capacity of our faith. He who does not have faith in the Holy Sacraments of the Church, for example, receives next to nil of that unmerited and superabundant grace, and in the case of you Protestants, does so on his own choosing. "Many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him" (John 6).
Again, the Roman concept of Grace is just not biblical. Grace is not a chunk of spiritual power, stored in a "treasury of merit", dolled out by a priest at a formal ceremony.
Grace is not a power pill with a short half life that aids us in attaining our own justfication.
Grace is God's attitude toward us where He decides to give mercy and favor (UNMERITED) to those who justly deserve punishment and wrath. Grace is being TREATED as if we never sinned, while true JUSTICE demands that we get rightly deserved punishment.
Grace is being forgiven and pardoned by accepting thru Faith the Gift of eternal life, earned by the perfect Lamb slain for sin. God sees us as perfect (In Christ) and treats us such (unmerited favor)! We are His children who are heirs of the Promise. We are seated, positionally, in heaven with Christ. We are Given eternal life, rescued from damnation, no longer under condemnation.
Christ came to save sinners, not the righteous or those who try to justify themselves(The Pharisee and the Publican ). God saved us while we were DEAD in sin.
Grace and Works do not and cannot mix!
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Grace, undeserved favorable treatment, is nullified when we try to EARN favorable treatment, because it becomes MERIT. We are seen as rejecting the undeserved favorable treatment (Grace), by trying to EARN IT (merit).
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
First, the Catholic Church does not claim it wrote the Bible. You keep repeating this nonsense without providing a single shred of evidence to that effect. Show me one document where the Church makes such a claim.
What the Church does say is that it was the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that selected the books into a canon otherwise known as the Christian Bible.
Second, I am not Roman Catholic by baptism, but Eastern Orthodox. And the Orthodox Church doe snot share this idolatrous definition of the Bible. Neither the view of the Sacred Tradition, nor of the scriptures, corresponds to the Catholic Catechism.
If you want to learn more about the "other" Catholic Church, the one that did not participate at Trent, I invite you to read this short article on the The Dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church, particularly the part of where the scriptures belong in in this Tradition and this about the scriptures themselves: "Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit."
So, spouting Catholic Catechism to me is neither an canonically binding nor impressive. I can understand that the Church in the West, besieged by Protestant revolt, undertook to declare the Bible inerrant and succumb in part to the idolatry of its nemesis.
Yes, but it's not the oldest copy of the Bible. The East goes back to the earliest Church records that show the earliest life of the primitive Church, specifically how the earliest Church worshiped and what it taught, in order to make sure the Church continues to worship in the same manner and teach in the same mindset. In other words, the East is interested to not deviate from the earliest recorded Church interpretation , worship, and teaching, so as to preserve the life of the Church unchanged.
To an Orthodox it is important to know that he or she worships the same way as his or her ancestors, 800 or 1700 or more years ago, then to be able to cherry-pick through the Bible with a 21st mind and in cultures far removed from those of the early Church, making up worship practices as you go along, which is sure to lead you astray from the original Christianity.
You brought up the "cousins" versus "brothers" in another post. If you are ever in a Mediterranean area near the Middle East, Greece, Cyprus, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, etc. ask how they what their cousins, and step brothers and sister. You might be amazed to learn that nothing has changed since 2,000 years ago in those Biblical lands.
But try to approach them with your vocabulary definitions and Strong's NJ 19th century Greek experience, and see where that gets you. You can't dictate cultural norms with dictionary definitions using 21st century English and 21st century local American cultural norms as the biblical standard. It's not Greek that's at fault, but translations of Greek. And in order to interpret the cultural norms properly, one must go by the cultural norms and times in which the Bible was written, not what is "normal" in, say, New York today.
If you use the Bible as you guide, then it would be perfectly logical to believe in pink unicorns and Eastern Bunnies (after all, the sky is the limit, the Bible says "with God everything is possible"). But if we examine the earliest Church practices, we know the Church did not believe in Eastern Bunnies because eastern Bunnies were not part of their prayers.
And how do we know what the early Christians believed? By knowing how they worshiped. And how do we know how they worshiped? We have records of the Divine Liturgy—lex orandi est lex credendi, a principle that how we pray is what we believe. The Eastern Church still has the same liturgy it had 1700 years ago, and what is believed is that which is in the liturgical life of the Church, given Orthodox Christians assurance that the early Christians prayed and believed in the same thing, not the oldest copy of the Bible!
Which blows the whole immaculate conception and perpetual virginity thing out of the water, along with praying to saints, holy water, mortal vs venial sins, and a whole host of other traditions which men have added to Scripture in the name of religion.
It blows the Bible out of the water too. The LDS consider the Book of Mormon on the part with the New and Old Testaments. Based on what? The Torah is believed by the Jews to have been written by God before the foundation of the world (if we can speak in chronological terms at all!). Based on what? Chistians and Jews believe the Torah was dictated to Moses by God, word for word, just as the Muslims believe the Koran was. Based on what if not an a priori assumption and blind acceptance that this really is so?
Obviosuly, being obtuse is a choice.
The uniting of a sperm and an egg ... which forms a baby and grows up to be a human being is an awesome mystery. We can describe it we can dissect it, we can hypothesize regarding it etc., But man can not create life ... We can plant a seed and nurture the seed. Seeds (plants) have been viable after over 2000, years and will still grow into what was intended, when nurtured ... that life is of God and from God. Plants have life, the life force in all things is of God.
The Power of the atom is of God. Order does not emerge from Chaos. It is the other way around, order can descend into chaos. Eggs are amazing. How the blood system works, the amazing functions of our brains and our hearts, and the fact that broken bones held together will grow back together. This power is of God. The Bible says man is without excuse as they can see the stars, sun, moon, heavenly bodies all in their orbits. We are without excuse.
What else? Nature? A lie of Satan, meant to deceive man. Man is easily deceived, and Satan lies constantly and is quite good at it. Why believe in Nature? Because it makes man superior. Personally to believe in a God that nothing is impossible for Him to do,or accomplish, or create: as opposite that of being at the whims of nature; really makes no sense at all.
Man from the beginning wanted/wants to do what is right in his own eyes. Rather than to follow the instructions and teachings of God ... which are all GOOD! LOVE! MERCY! FORGIVNESS! GRACE! STRENGTH, ENERGY, RIGHTEOUS! HOLY! WORTHY! ALL POWER! ROMANS 1 CONSIDER. _________________________________________________________ Young's LITERAL TRANSLATION Romans 1
"1.Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God --
2.which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --
3.concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4.who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
5.through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;
6.among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ;
7.to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ!
8.first, indeed, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world;
9.for God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the good news of His Son, how unceasingly I make mention of you,
10.always in my prayers beseeching, if by any means now at length I shall have a prosperous journey, by the will of God, to come unto you,
11.for I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, that ye may be established;
12.and that is, that I may be comforted together among you, through the faith in one another, both yours and mine.
13.And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that many times I did purpose to come unto you -- and was hindered till the present time -- that some fruit I might have also among you, even as also among the other nations.
14.Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to thoughtless, I am a debtor,
15.so, as much as in me is, I am ready also to you who [are] in Rome to proclaim good news,
16.for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
17.For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,'
18.for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.
19.Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest [it] to them,
20.for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
21.because, having known God they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
22.professing to be wise, they were made fools,
23.and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
24.Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
25.who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.
26.Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
27.and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.
28.And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
29.having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
3.0evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31.unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful; 32.who the righteous judgment of God having known -- that those practising such things are worthy of death -- not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them." _________________________________________________________
The uniting of a sperm and an egg ... which forms a baby and grows up to be a human being is an awesome mystery. We can describe it we can dissect it, we can hypothesize regarding it etc., But man can not create life ... We can plant a seed and nurture the seed. Seeds (plants) have been viable after over 2000, years and will still grow into what was intended, when nurtured ... that life is of God and from God. Plants have life, the life force in all things is of God.
The Power of the atom is of God. Order does not emerge from Chaos. It is the other way around, order can descend into chaos. Eggs are amazing. How the blood system works, the amazing functions of our brains and our hearts, and the fact that broken bones held together will grow back together. This power is of God. The Bible says man is without excuse as they can see the stars, sun, moon, heavenly bodies all in their orbits. We are without excuse.
What else? Nature? A lie of Satan, meant to deceive man. Man is easily deceived, and Satan lies constantly and is quite good at it. Why believe in Nature? Because it makes man superior. Personally to believe in a God that nothing is impossible for Him to do,or accomplish, or create: as opposite that of being at the whims of nature; really makes no sense at all.
Man from the beginning wanted/wants to do what is right in his own eyes. Rather than to follow the instructions and teachings of God ... which are all GOOD! LOVE! MERCY! FORGIVNESS! GRACE! STRENGTH, ENERGY, RIGHTEOUS! HOLY! WORTHY! ALL POWER! ROMANS 1 CONSIDER. _________________________________________________________ Young's LITERAL TRANSLATION Romans 1
"1.Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God --
2.which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --
3.concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4.who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
5.through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;
6.among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ;
7.to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ!
8.first, indeed, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed in the whole world;
9.for God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the good news of His Son, how unceasingly I make mention of you,
10.always in my prayers beseeching, if by any means now at length I shall have a prosperous journey, by the will of God, to come unto you,
11.for I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, that ye may be established;
12.and that is, that I may be comforted together among you, through the faith in one another, both yours and mine.
13.And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that many times I did purpose to come unto you -- and was hindered till the present time -- that some fruit I might have also among you, even as also among the other nations.
14.Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to thoughtless, I am a debtor,
15.so, as much as in me is, I am ready also to you who [are] in Rome to proclaim good news,
16.for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
17.For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,'
18.for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.
19.Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest [it] to them,
20.for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
21.because, having known God they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
22.professing to be wise, they were made fools,
23.and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
24.Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
25.who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.
26.Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
27.and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.
28.And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
29.having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
3.0evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31.unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful; 32.who the righteous judgment of God having known -- that those practicing such things are worthy of death -- not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them." _________________________________________________________
“And how do we know what the early Christians believed? By knowing how they worshiped. And how do we know how they worshiped? We have records of the Divine Liturgy—lex orandi est lex credendi, a principle that how we pray is what we believe.”
It was just a formalized prayer that really has nothing to do with what persons actually believed.
“1700 years ago”? You have copies that can be dated accurately?
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