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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ


TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformation; savedbygrace
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To: Diamond
do you think the Council erred? Do you think they committed an injustice against Honorius?

Perhaps to be "Roman-ically correct," one should conclude that the council cannot err because it is infallible since it was certified by the pope. However not all council statements "define a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church." Disciplinary action is not a definition of faith or morals. St. Joan of Arc was condemned to death by a council but was later exonerated. So disciplinary actions against individuals are not infallible. The condemnation of Honorius' heresy is infallible but not the condemnation of the man.

2,701 posted on 11/19/2010 12:34:31 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Belteshazzar

Amen


2,702 posted on 11/19/2010 12:42:19 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Belteshazzar
However, condemned and despairing, to which point the Spirit has brought us, He reveals also that this same God who mercilessly crushes us under the weight of His holy law, tolerating no unholiness in His presence, also so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to bear the weight of our sin on His own shoulders, to become sin for us, and bear the full condemnation in our stead, so that we might be counted righteous, we might have His righteousness as our own. This righteousness, which consists both of His active and perfect obedience to God’s law in thought, word, and deed (”He has done all things well!”) and His passive and patient obedience to the Father in drinking the full cup of His wrath (see His prayer in the Garden of Gethsamane) toward all sin and all sinners, is ours by faith in this crucified One whom the Father sent into the world to redeem sinners.

Amen...awesome post! Praise be to the name of the Lord.

2,703 posted on 11/19/2010 12:48:05 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: OLD REGGIE; HarleyD; stfassisi; mas cerveza por favor
HD: Our friend Kosta doesn't even believe in the existance of the full Septuagint as he just posted. Are you willing to take that stand?

OR: On this I agree with Kosta. There is not, nor ever has been, such a thing as a Septuagint.

Well, I never said that. The pre-Christian era Septuagint was completed, gradually, by about 150 BC. We just don't know with certainty what books were in that canon because only seven pre-Christian books are known to exist.

The next complete canon of the Septuagint (LXX) is in Codices known as Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (written c. 350 AD), which is to say about 500 years later, and in the case of Alexandrinus, almost 600 years later! (note also that Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Alexandrinus are not exactly identical either).

By comparison, the earliest complete Jewish Masoretic Text (MT) is another 500 years removed from the Greek!  The only thing that the MT has to boast about is the claim that allegedly its verison of Isaiah matched "perfectly" the Qumran (Dead Sea Scroll) version of Isaiah. Even if true, that doesn't mean we can say the rests does!

The fact that post-Christian era rabbis tried to re-write the LXX and bring in closer to the MT (and that at least three such versions—Theodoton, Symmachus and Aquila—existed in the 2nd century AD) shows that scriptural manipulation existed so much so that Origen called on the rabbis to provide a version of their scriptures that was not fraudulent!

What are we to say of the two versions of Luke's Gospel (one so-called "long" and the other one "short")? Which one is genuine? When it comes to biblical manuscripts nothing is clearly black and white.

Cerveza makes states correctly that the New Testament authors quoted from the Septuagint, but doesn't tell us which Septuagint! Let's not forget that there are no first century New Testament manuscripts to reveal what that version of LXX was. The earliest extant copies and fragments of the New Testament are 2nd century AD copies, when at least three Septuagint variants were in circulation.

And there are serious theological variations in the Septuagint in such passages as Isaiah 9:5/6, and other verses.

For example:

and

It's like night and day! Also other translations change the tense. For instance, the Catholic NAB version puts it in the future tense

The Jewish translations also vary. For instance this English-version Tanakh puts the same verse in the past tense, as something already accomplished:

or

For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; [JPS]

So, clearly, not only do the version of the Septuagint vary, but the Englih translations are clearly doctrinally "harmonized" (read: corrupted!).

2,704 posted on 11/19/2010 1:28:22 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: stfassisi; mas cerveza por favor
No,but I understand his doubt because we don't have full sets of the supposed original. I accept these things on FAITH because I trust the Church.

I am reminded of the incident in scripture in which Josiah commanded the temple to be refurbished. There in a hidden room, they found the word of God after 400 years in which it was missing. Josiah read from that holy text to the people from sun up to sun down while all the people stood the entire day listening to it.

People did not call into question the authenticity of the text that had been missing for 400 years. Nor did they figure that it was the word of God simply because Josiah said it was and they took it on faith in Josiah. And, one would suppose that after 400 years it was probably a bit tatter and parts were missing. That didn't seem to matter. They knew that it was the word of God because God speaks to His people through the words and His people hear His voice. And when they heard the word read by Josiah, the people wept.

We know that the scriptures are the word of God because God speaks to us through them. Not because we can prove their authentication, or we take it on faith from someone, or that we accept portions that we like. If a person cannot hear God through His holy word, he should ask himself as to why not.

2,705 posted on 11/19/2010 2:55:38 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: kosta50; stfassisi; mas cerveza por favor; HarleyD; Kolokotronis
As for Harley's unsuccessful search for the Greek word "victim," Christ is most definitely considered a victim, but you won't find it in the Reformed Bibles and reformed Random Verse Generators because it clashes with the Deformed Protestant theology!

I missed this post. They're coming in a flurries now.

Yes, Kosta, this is predictable from the Orthodox view of "victim". This is the direction the Catholic Church is moving. However, many of those versions that I quoted are derived from international scholars painstakingly researching the text for the correct meaning. In many cases, these are not all Reformed people. I'm perfectly satisfied with the versions.

The Orthodox just published their version of the scriptures (after 2000 years-better late than never). If I can find an on line version I'd be happy to look for the word "victim".

2,706 posted on 11/19/2010 3:07:56 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: mas cerveza por favor
However not all council statements "define a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church."

[snip]

The condemnation of Honorius' heresy is infallible but not the condemnation of the man.

These two statements seem mutually exlcusive and contradictory. How could a teaching even be called a heresy in the first place without "defining a doctrine regarding faith" ?? And further, how could the condemnation of the heresy be called "infallible" if it did not "define a doctrine regarding faith"?

That doesn't make any sense.

Cordially,

2,707 posted on 11/19/2010 3:11:51 PM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; stfassisi; mas cerveza por favor; Kolokotronis
HEY!!! What are you Orthodox trying to pull!!!! I just looked to see if the Orthodox Bible is on line and found this:

On the one hand you tell me that you don't like our "Reformed" versions, and then you go and copy the King James Version!!!!! We Protestants want royalties!!!
2,708 posted on 11/19/2010 3:19:42 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: Belteshazzar

Your post is very similar to Jonathan Edwards “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

In any event, Catholic’s don’t believe in a dualistic God-We understand that God does not change and the love crushes sin,not anger.

The Bible literalest can never reconcile.


2,709 posted on 11/19/2010 3:26:10 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: boatbums; metmom; kosta50
I have gone through these times, I readily admit it, and have come out on the other end stronger in my faith and more sure of the truths of God's word.

I applaud you for admitting this,dear sister.Most people try and hide this.

I question the sincerity of those who do and who, whether they realize it or not, are used by Satan to confuse and draw others away from the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What makes you think it could not be God allowing a trial where even those around the person in trial learn a lesson that brings them closer to Christ?

2,710 posted on 11/19/2010 3:34:51 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: metmom; mas cerveza por favor; RnMomof7; annalex; Quix; presently no screen name
mas said: The Church had always believed that Mary committed no sins and that her body was lifted to heaven upon apparent death or sleep.

"apparent" death?!?! metmom said: "Now she didn't really die? What next? She resurrected herself? If she committed no sin, she didn't need a savior and therefore lied when she sang her song in Luke and said *God, my savior,*. But then if she lied she wasn't without sin."

I just realized something, metmom: The RCC teaches that Mary was Immaculately conceived. That she was without sin her entire life.

The wages of sin is DEATH.

If they say Mary died, they are hoisted. They claim she never sinned.

So they MUST say 'apparently' or some such nonsense.

2,711 posted on 11/19/2010 3:39:45 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: boatbums; stfassisi; metmom
It is certainly possible that from time-to-time everyone goes through a "crisis of faith". I have gone through these times...On the other hand, not once did I express my doubts, questions and conflicts to total strangers because I did not want to cause anyone to stumble or be caught up in what was my own to bear.

God forbid we should seek the truth, lest some delusional individuals lose their faith! It's best to stifle all search and reason that migh challenge their convictions, for they obliviously presume they know all there is to know!

You are perfectly free to ignore what I have to say. No one is forcing you to read my posts if you find yourself stumbling in your certitude.

I question the sincerity of those who do and who, whether they realize it or not, are used by Satan to confuse and draw others away from the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You know, I am merely an agnostic looking at both sides of the coin. Is that insincere? Apparently in your book it is. And that's putting it mildly. You seem to think it's outright satanic! That's the type of mindset that was operative in Salaam witch hunts and in Europe where the religiously "incorrect" were incinerated.

2,712 posted on 11/19/2010 3:41:47 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: HarleyD; mas cerveza por favor
We know that the scriptures are the word of God because God speaks to us through them

Plenty of heretics through the ages claim the same thing,but how do you measure this...by some warm feeling in your belly that those who disagree with you also claim?

I'm glad to have pretty good consistency of a 2000 plus year old Church rather than guess at it

2,713 posted on 11/19/2010 3:46:19 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: smvoice; metmom
"apparent" death?!?! metmom said: "Now she didn't really die? What next? She resurrected herself? If she committed no sin, she didn't need a savior and therefore lied when she sang her song in Luke and said *God, my savior,*. But then if she lied she wasn't without sin."

I just realized something, metmom: The RCC teaches that Mary was Immaculately conceived. That she was without sin her entire life.

Mary needed a savior to preserve her from original sin and provide her with sanctifying grace. She is thought to have died but it was not possible to tell for sure since her body was assumed to heaven.

2,714 posted on 11/19/2010 4:01:37 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: stfassisi
What makes you think it could not be God allowing a trial where even those around the person in trial learn a lesson that brings them closer to Christ?

God certainly can do that, but that was not my point. I said:

On the other hand, not once did I express my doubts, questions and conflicts to total strangers because I did not want to cause anyone to stumble or be caught up in what was my own to bear.

My point was that I did not announce my doubts to strangers, try to get them to agree with my doubts or cast aspersions on those who had a strong faith. My "crisis of faith" was my private ordeal and it was resolved by prayer, fellowship and council with strong mentors, and God proving his truth to my heart which allowed me to resolve the doubts and come out stronger, able to help others experiencing the same tests. We are told not be a "stumbling block" to those who are weak in faith.

2,715 posted on 11/19/2010 4:13:23 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor; metmom
Is this not true then, mas?

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX.

AND

"She was ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect"

Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX.

AND

She remained "free of every personal sin her whole life long." The German Bishop's Conference, The Church's Confession of Faith (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987), p. 46, quoting J.A. Mohler.

emphasis mine.

2,716 posted on 11/19/2010 4:17:15 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: stfassisi

stfassisi wrote:
“Your post is very similar to Jonathan Edwards ‘Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.’”

Could be. I never read him. But I think I will take that as a compliment.

stfassis also wrote:
“In any event, Catholic’s don’t believe in a dualistic God-We understand that God does not change and the love crushes sin,not anger.”

Dualistic? Hardly. You, stfassisi, are now standing in the temple with the Pharisee and the tax collector ... and, from your answer, you are inclined to go the way of the Pharisee. It leads to where you do not want to go.

Dualistic? That is a near blasphemous adjective. You need to meditate on the very thing the apostle admonished Timothy to do as he trained the pastors of the third generation of the ambassadors of Christ: “This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not TO STRIVE ABOUT WORDS TO NO PROFIT, TO THE RUIN OF THE HEARERS. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer.” (2 Timothy 2:11-17)

Rightly dividing the word means dividing it, distinguishing it into Law and Gospel, Demand and Promise. Stfassisi, you will never ever fulfill what God demands, only One has done that, and what He has accomplished is offered to you freely. Beware that you do not call the Holy Spirit a liar in this.

stfassisi also wrote:
“The Bible literalest can never reconcile.”

No. We leave reconciling to our God: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” (2 Corinthians 5:19)

SOLI DEO GLORIA


2,717 posted on 11/19/2010 5:13:27 PM PST by Belteshazzar
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To: stfassisi; mas cerveza por favor
I'm glad to have pretty good consistency of a 2000 plus year old Church rather than guess at it

The scriptures were infallible and in existence long before the Church existed. At least the Old Testament.

BTW-What does it matter anyway? The Church tells you everything to believe.

2,718 posted on 11/19/2010 6:40:13 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: kosta50
You know, I am merely an agnostic looking at both sides of the coin...

...That's the type of mindset that was operative in Salaam witch hunts and in Europe where the religiously "incorrect" were incinerated.

Not that there's anything wrong with that </Seinfeld>

2,719 posted on 11/19/2010 7:09:45 PM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: HarleyD; stfassisi; mas cerveza por favor; Kolokotronis
What are you Orthodox trying to pull!!!! I just looked to see if the Orthodox Bible is on line and found this...Complete Orthodox Study Bible (NKJV/LXX)The Orthodox Study Bible, created by The Orthodox Study Bible Old Testament Project and published by Thomas Nelson, uses the New King James Version of the Bible as the basis for a fresh translation of the Septuagint text

This is a North American (English-language) project that is totally flawed but obviously well-funded. First, it does not represent the "official" Orthodox Bible. Just to give you an example how fraudulent it is it, let's look at the side-by-sdie Greek-English Isaiah 9:6

Greek text

ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ

What the Greek text says

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him

 

NKJV text

For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

It's actually an Evangelical Trojan Horse that some North American prelates fell for, to their shame. AS per Wikipedia, some who didn't describe it as something that "feels far too much like a piece of  evangelical propaganda decked out in the trappings of Orthodoxy" [Archimndrite Ephrem] and Priest Seraphim Johnson wrote "the Study Bible reproduces the whole textual apparatus of the NKJV, including many of the doubtful decisions of modern non-Orthodox biblical scholarship," both commenting on the project in the Orthodox Information Center book review.

2,720 posted on 11/19/2010 9:18:57 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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