Posted on 10/04/2010 12:57:36 PM PDT by Amerisrael
Art Vanick, co-author of The Spalding Enigma, Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon, makes an appearance on Out of Mormonism to address the Glenn Beck Restoring Honor Rally.
Andy, Art, and Roger discuss the ramifications of the rally from a biblical Christian perspective.
Do Christians understand that Mormonism is different than biblical Christianity?
[ These are two separate "Out of Mormonism" radio podcasts from Mesa, Arizona. Very interesting.]
While Mormonism may not pose the violent / stealth and political threat that Islam does, from a spiritual standpoint, it is just as dangerous.
(Excerpt) Read more at outofmormonism.libsyn.com ...
The Mormon doctrine of eternal progression teaches that God the Father was once a man, who progressed to Godhood through obedience to certain laws and ordinances. Part of this obedience involved getting married to a woman ("The Heavenly Mother"), who gives birth to God’s spirit children, who are sent to earth to inhabit bodies of flesh and bone. These spirit children, if they are Mormons, remain obedient to the laws of the Mormon Church, and are married in the Mormon temple, have the potential to become gods themselves. They will produce spirit children and rule their own planet. This process is then repeated.
The logical implications of this are as follows:
--The present God the Father and Heavenly Mother would themselves have had a Heavenly Father and Mother in existence before them, and they a Heavenly Father and Mother before them, and so on and so fourth. Indeed, not only does this logically follow through in Mormon theology, but many LDS leaders have specifically taught that the present God and Father had a Father above Him, and He above Him, etc. 1
--God the Father would have had to worship and pray to His God and Father as we do to Him.
--If the present God and Father of this planet is worshipped and prayed to by His spirit children, and if Mormon males hope to become gods in the same way, their spirit children would likewise pray to and worship them!
[At this point it is worth bearing in mind that the Bible says nothing about an infinite number of god’s past and god’s to come. On the contrary, Isaiah 43:10 is very clear when God states: "Before me no God was formed and neither will there be one after me." There was no god before God and there will certainly be no gods after Him. He is "the God of gods" (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 136:2; Dan. 2:4, 11:36). That is to say, although there are certainly so called "gods" in existence (1 Cor. 8:5), they are not true God by nature (Gal. 4:8). There is only one true God (John 17:3). ]
--If temple marriage is essential to becoming a god, as Mormons claim, then God the Father would likewise have been required to be married in a temple. Of course, there is nothing at all about this in the Bible.
--Jesus would have to have been married in a temple, otherwise He could not have been exalted and become a god (Christians believe He was always God, and not a god, but The God.). There is nothing at all in the Bible about Jesus being married in a temple, or even married outside a temple. Indeed, the Biblical temples were not even used for temple marriage, but for purification rites, and animal sacrifices.
--Some LDS leaders have not only taught that Jesus was married, but that He was a polygamist! 2
--If families are to be sealed in the temple as a family unit, to be a "family forever", what if one of those family members does not remain obedient to the Mormon faith? How can they remain together as a family, if some members of that family are disobedient?
--Bill McKeever of Mormonism Researched Ministry makes an interesting observation about eternal families. He asks how it can be that a Mormon family can stay together forever in eternity if, for example, the children of that family go on to become gods themselves and rule their own planets? Those family members could not be together if they are each ruling their own planets.
Footnotes
1. "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).
"Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
2."Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82).
"There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 259).
"In the Church councils, it was spoken of: "Joseph F. Smith_ He spoke upon the marriage in Cana of Galilee. He thought Jesus was the bridegroom and Mary and Martha the brides."(Journal of Wilford Woodruff, July 22, 1883).
"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Jedediah Grant, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346). "One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that great loved Jesus, such as Mary and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them and associated with the much; and when he arose from the dead, instead of first showing himself to his chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them--namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159).
PD!!
You didn’t list the MORMON site containing the Journal of Discourses!
Any REASON for that?
Let ME help the investigators out!
http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/
No they haven't.
Your game of saying, "Look over here and you'll find the answers." is getting way more than a little thin!
Pretending the answers have BEEN provided by continually posting the same list of links is nothing but a propaganda tactic meant to influence the passerby.
McGuyver: QUICK! I need to know the cosign of 37.9 degrees: NOW!!!
PD: Here is a list of nice Math books. You'll find the ansswer in there; if you are really sincere.
(McGuyver needs a bit of ENGLISH help, too!)
it’s cosine, you boob!
Lurkers may note the difference in ‘truth’ giving styles...
Dang!
Yust when my decoder ring batteries go dead; doncha know!
I’ll give you an “A” for consistancy.
Empty; but still good...
Why on EARTH do you call MORMON writings PROPAGANDA?
Does your BISHOP know about your behavior here?
And, out of character.
He may be having a weak moment, and I'm SURE he'll apologize for it.
[ Yeah, some came to my neighborhood yesterday and they were tossing molotov cocktails off their bikes burning down all of the non-mormon houses and churches.
Do I really need a sarc?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Honestly...To even mention Mormonism and Islam in the same breath is outrageous. These anti-Mormons are mentally unbalanced. ( Hate will do that to a person.)
The next time those bike riding Mormons are in my neighborhood, I’m inviting them in for lunch. Time to find out what Mormons believe from Mormons themselves. ]
The Mormons are just as insidious as the Amish....
How does one disagree on facts, the people, places and cultures in the BOM that HAVE NO RECORD.
Say its raining outside and you come to me and say you disagree, does that stop the rain?
So exactly how much more explaining can you do in order change the rain to sun?
Does your “further explanation" put Nephite artifacts in the ground. Does praying over the BoM place Israelite DNA in Mayan (or Incan or Cherokee or yada yada yada)cells?
I know you have to play this little game, and I am still going to assume that is all it is, that you don't have this deficit of logic thing going on, but come on now, arrogant little snarks don't a reasoned argument make.
Come to the table with PROOF, not wild goose chases, slight of hand and obfuscation...
Very well said.
As is typical of Mormon writings, CHRISTIANITY is misrepresented therein.
GMTA
Wave your hand, and it all goes away; doesn't it!
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