The Christmas Story and Joseph Smith, Restorer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (OPEN)

greaterthings.com ^ | Lynn Ridenhour

[Cronos]

Joseph Smith, the so-called profit or as properly pronounced CON-MAN translated the Nephite interpreters often called "Urim and Thummim" were found with the plates on Hill Cumorah by placing the seer stone in a hat and covering his face with his hat to darken his eyes

Now of course it's convenient that those "golden plates" were "lost" and ole Joe stuffed his face in a hat to pretend to translate what was never there. A pretty good con-man

[Cronos]

Mormons believe that God is only one of many gods who were once men and that each of us in turn can become what God is now. This process of men becoming gods is said to go back infinitely. But of course none of these gods can be infinite if they are multiple and had a beginning and are actually human beings. In Mormons’ view, both Jesus and the Father are what we would call glorified creatures

Why do you believe this rot?

[Cronos]

And it is so hilarious the waffling that the profits of mormonism made:

1. In an early book of "Scripture" brought forth by Joseph Smith, the creation account consistently refers to the singular when speaking of God and creation: "I, God, caused . . . I, God, created . . . I, God, saw. . . . " The singular is used 50 times in the second and third chapters of the Book of Moses (1831).

2. In another of Smith’s earlier works, the Book of Mormon (1830), there are no references to a plurality of gods. At best, there is a confusion, at times, between the Father and the Son, leading at times to the extreme of modalism (one divine person who reveals himself sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son) or the other extreme of "binitarianism," belief in two persons in God. The Book of Mormon also makes a strong point for God’s spiritual and eternal unity (see Alma 11:44 and 22:10-11, which proclaims that God is the "Great Spirit").

3. Another early work of Smith is the Lectures on Faith (1834-35). There is continual evidence that the first Mormon leader taught a form of bitheism: the Father and the Son are separate gods. The Holy Spirit is merely the "mind" of the two.

4. At about the same time, we begin to see a doctrinal shift. Smith had acquired some mummies and Egyptian papyri. He proclaimed the writings to be those of the patriarch, Abraham, in his own hand, and set out to translate the text. His Book of Abraham records in chapters four and five that "the gods called . . . the gods ordered . . . the gods prepared" some 45 times. Smith thus introduces the notion of a plurality of gods.

[Cronos]

This Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that St. Paul is describing in Ephesians will be here to all generations. And it has been there for 2000 years under the protection of the Holy Spirit, teaching what Christ taught through His Apostles.

In contrast in Mormonism you have fake history, fake genetics, fake books (Moroni etc.).

[MHGinTN]

Here's an essay address the specious 'Book of Abraham that Smith supposedly 'translated' from Egyptian heiroglyphs.

BTW, have you ever seen the eight hundred plus words of Smith prophecy for his own advent in these latter days that he inserted at the end of the Boo of Genesis when he 'translated' the King James Bible back into King James English, using not a single text other than a handy King James Bible?

[Cronos]

Not one time in 1700 years has anyone even claimed that God was involved in deciding which books were to be included.

I would suggest taking the time to do some research.

Irenæus, in his work "Against Heresies" (A.D. 182-88), testifies to the existence of a Tetramorph, or Quadriform Gospel, given by the Word and unified by one Spirit; to repudiate this Gospel or any part of it, as did the Alogi and Marcionites, was to sin against revelation and the Spirit of God.

The Synod of Hippo with the grace of God defined and the Council of Carthage affirmed the canon. In contrast, besides the con-man Smith and his non-existent history and gold plated books, there is no evidence for the Mormon books being anythign more than badly written fiction.

[MHGinTN]

Why yes it can! Have you read McConkie’s musings on the nature of God? He’ll teach you that god achieved his godhood status ... implying of course that god wasn’t always god but had to work his way to that position just like mormon men are admonished to do.

[Cronos]

The time after Christs death is called the dark ages for a reason

I would suggest taking the time to do some research. The "dark ages" is a term referring to the perceived period of both cultural and economic deterioration as well as disruption that took place in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.

you do KNOW that the Roman Empire declined following the 4th century AFTER Christ,right?

Also, The concept of a Dark Age originated with the Italian scholar Petrarch (Francesco Petrarca) in the 1330s, and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature. Petrarch regarded the post-Roman centuries as "dark" compared to the light of classical antiquity. Later historians expanded the term to refer to the transitional period between Roman times and the High Middle Ages, so quite different from your own personal (flawed) interpretation

[Cronos]

The Bible, its very compilation, is a testament to the great apostasy.

Interesting, I wonder what gives you that -- you think that the Bible is flawed and a part of apostasy? Is the Book of Moroni unflawed?

[Cronos]

Amos 8:11-14 (prophesied around 780 B.C), he warned of the coming destruction of Israel that would, in fact, occur in 721 B.C.as his book speaks of an apostasy in ancient Israel, not after the death of the last apostle in New Testament times.

And note that this apostasy was not total. In the very next chapter (9:8-10), Amos makes this very clear: "'Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,' says the Lord. 'For lo, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the ground. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, 'Evil shall not overtake or meet us.'

Even during such a corrupt time as the time of the Judges, when "every man did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 17:6). Yet, even then, this gift of "the Urim and the Thummim" (in the original sense, not J. Smith's con game) was alive and well. And when the Israelites consulted God through "Phineas the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron," who was High Priest at the time (cf. Judges 20:18-28), they received the oracle of God through him. They may not have always consulted the Lord or obeyed Him, but He was always there for them.

[Quix]

As I’ve noted hereon many times . . .

My dissertation Chairman was a Mormon Bishop—a very brilliant man.

I asked him once—as he was getting his briefcase or some such out of his trunk where a Book of Mormon was—how he dealt with the Book of Mormon being revised 5 times or so when it was supposed to have been flawless to begin with.

He said:

“Life is so complex, just about any cock-a-may-me explanation will do.”

I certainly disagree in terms of theology. Yet, he does have a point. The complexity allows all manner of convoluted, jury rigged, magicsterical bureaucratic power-mongered, tyrannical RELIGION leaders etc. plenty of room to convince those who are not well aware or decline to become so . . . of all manner of horse biscuits being their unique golden orbs of truly truest truth from Heaven or from Mary’s white hankys or whatever.

God’s Word has prove true through the ages to anyone willing to be broken on it and led by His Spirit.

Others take horrible chances to dreadful ends seeking truth elsewhere.

[Colofornian]

This Church that St. Paul is describing in Ephesians will be here to all generations " [cronos]
[Stourme corrects] Unfortunately... you are wrong. You do like so many and that is you make a huge leap of assumptions. Catholics like to ignore the plainest parts of the scriptures. Man rejected the true gospel and created their own.

What? You ignore Ephesians 3:21, Stourme? How do you explain Paul's prophesy in Eph. 3:21, then?

20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph. 3:20-21)

How can the apostle Paul ascribed glory "in the church...throughout all ages, world without end" if that glory ended/faded/evaporated for 16-17 centuries? Have trouble with that little word "all" ("all ages") or "world without end", Stourme?

[Stourme]

[Cronos asserts]

This Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that St. Paul is describing in Ephesians will be here to all generations. And it has been there for 2000 years under the protection of the Holy Spirit, teaching what Christ taught through His Apostles.

[Stourme twinkles]

Really???

1. Please explain then where Christ taught His Apostles to burn people alive for heresy...

2. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to hold inquisitions...

3. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to torture people...

4. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to put out death warrants on world leaders (Elizabeth I)

5. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to sell indulgences...

6. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to sit on high thrones, wear gold laden clothing, require people to kiss their rings, and call themselves "Holy Father".

7. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to throw away scripture...

8. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles that pagan emperors would take over appointing church leaders....

By their fruits ye shall know them....

Christ setup His Church and the people rejected it and killed the Apostles. God always works through a prophet. The pope is not a prophet. Nor have there ever been a prophet in the Catholic Church.

Rev 11 talks about real prophets on the earth in the last days. These prophets are not Catholic because the Catholic Church doesn't have prophets. Therefore, the Catholic Church is not the true Church of God. See the list above for additional reasons.

Here's a bonus:

Daniel 2:44

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel describes a time long after the Babylonian and Roman empires have gone..that the God would set up a kingdom that wouldn't be destroyed and God would be the head of it.

 

 

[Stourme]

[Cronos gibbers]

Irenæus, in his work "Against Heresies" (A.D. 182-88), testifies to the existence of a Tetramorph, or Quadriform

[Stourme boggles]

Sorry, I never learned to speak gibberish.

[Cronos]

And read the entire 2 Thessalonians 2

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.one of those deceivers was J. Smith the founder of the cult called Mormonism
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

At NO point does +Paul indicate a complete apostasy

read Jesus' promises regarding the doctrinal integrity and the temporal perpetuity of his Church: "On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18); "20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matt. 28:20); "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live." (John 14:16); "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26); "12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. uth" (John 16:13).

Read Romans 12:1-5

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

Since Christ is the mind and head of his Church (Eph. 4:15-16), animating the body, the members enjoy an organic spiritual union with him (John 15:1-8). It's inconceivable that he would permit his body to disintegrate under the attacks of Satan. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as "The household of God . . . the pillar and foundation of truth." In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. "No one can enter a strong man's house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house" (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the "strong man" guarding his household, the Church.)

The Mormon "great apostasy" doctrine is a myth.

[Cronos]

And of course, you read Tim 1 out of context and in excerpted form

13What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. 14Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

15You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

And if you read the writings of St.Jerome To Eustochium Written at Rome 384 A.D.

38. Look to yourself and glory in your own success and not in others' failure. Some women care for the flesh and reckon up their income and daily expenditure: such are no fit models for you. Judas was a traitor, but the eleven apostles did not waver. Phygellus and Alexander made shipwreck; but the rest continued to run the race of faith.

[Elsie]

Yes, the gospel in it's entirty was lost.

Now then; about that ocean front property I have for you...

[Cronos]

And, of course, you must read the Bible in entirety, here is Matt 28:18-20 from the NIV

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

NOTE: And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age --> No false Mormon idea of grate apostasy.

And the KJV

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[Cronos]

BTW, have you ever seen the eight hundred plus words of Smith prophecy for his own advent in these latter days that he inserted at the end of the Boo of Genesis when he 'translated' the King James Bible back into King James English, using not a single text other than a handy King James Bible?

No, I haven't -- was the founder of Mormonism such a con-man that he thought no one would see that? More non-existent history?

[Cronos]

Nice, from the above link by MHG

In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland, Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable.

As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt."1 The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved.

In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church

To every one’s surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New York’s metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."2 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham.

With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God.

Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc.

In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."3

In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."

"It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."5

Facsimile No. 3

According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..."

But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of Facsimile No. 3. Instead, it shows "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."8

It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either.

When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.