Posted on 08/31/2010 4:07:41 AM PDT by Ancient Drive
May I humbly suggest that it is good to ask others first? Are not there alive today others who know the scriptures far deeper than we do?
Of course, the real deficiency in God’s people is that 99% of what they believe to be true came from others (a pastor, a SS teacher, a bible teacher, a book, etc.), and few believers know first hand what scripture says about much. Our first action when we have a question is that we should search the scriptures ourselves, like the Berean’s (Acts 17:11). They were commended for not accepting Paul’s message alone, in spite of his AAA rating (apostleship, anointing and authority). Berean’s today are very rare.
And I suggest that is is a sad decision to inquire of the church fathers and “doctors of the church” BEFORE searching the scriptures oneself first. This too, is dependence upon man rather than God.
It is far wiser to first search the scripture oneself, asking God to personally give light, with utter dependence on Him to guide, lead and teach - and reveal the truth. And then, after finding what we think is the answer, refer to those with established wisdom and history in the Lord for confirmation/correction to see if our conclusions are from God.
Over 40 years ago I was with a group who, seeking to return to a more true paradigm of the church, gradually went from studying first hand the scriptures, to seriously studying the writings of the early church fathers. After a time of doing this, study of scripture was abandoned, and the writings of the church fathers was elevated to being the only source of truth. Sad. A small group of these (most of the leaders) later abandoned their own company to join an eastern orthodox sect.
We are told to not be the followers of men, but of the Lord Jesus. And to be in fellowship (sharing, communing, learning) with others. Acts 2:42.
arlis
If it really exists, then I would agree.
We know that when Adam and Eve were in the Garden, Satan was already there. Waiting to tempt them. He had been kicked out of heaven, along with 1/3 of the angels, for his attempt to overthrow God. “The Gap Theory” , the time between Genesis 1:1 ad Genesis 1:2, if believed, would give the reason for Lucifer and his “sons of god” being present on earth before Adam and Eve. And they were responsible for the earth being made “tohu va bohu”, or waste. That being said, the two trees make perfect sense, in the fact that God created man after the rebellion of Lucifer, and placed the trees in the Garden for two reasons: Adam and God’s Plan against Lucifer’s rebellion. IMO.
So God creates people that He knows will do something bad, and holds them responsible for those actions, so He can punish them for it and sacrifice other living creatures? And then sacrifices His son for the bad things that He knew men would do?
Too bad there isn’t a glass that’s easier to see through for you.
That is excellent advice for those that believe in the scriptures as you do.
I’m a little slow getting to read this thread, but I want to post a comment.
I believe that God created man knowing the end from the beginning. I believe he created man with free will knowing exactly what would happen. This allows him to have the one thing he could not specifically create — men and women that would willingly trust and follow him. If he created a world of people with no choice but to follow him, they would be nothing more than drones. Where would be the faith and trust or the voluntary submission to his will?
Just my two cents.
Smvoice -
Seems that way to me too.
Stuart -
Just trying to relay what God says Himself. You are viewing through the eyes of one whose understanding is limited by a world of time, so you cannot comprehend. Scripture clearly shows that time is a temporary limitation that will someday apparently disapper. I view through the same eyes, but understand that if God is God, He must be so far beyond me that I cannot understand him. Time is one of the dimensions we live in. Top scientists say there may be another 5 dimensions outside of time. Einstein clearly saw that time was not what we think it is, but can be warped.
So what may appear from my (very) limited perspective, I can only trust what He does reveal about Himself to me. He asks me not to understand - I could only do that if I were His equal, and I am less than an atom compared to the Sun compared to Him. How dare I judge Him when He knows all, and my knowledge is so, so limited?
An atheist is a fool (says scripture) because he thinks that while he may possess only 1/1000 millionth of all the knowledge in the universe, his conclusion - on that tiny bit of knowledge - is that there absolutely is and can be no God. The agnostic is at least honest saying he does not know.
Your statement is fully understandable, and not new. Paul met such an argument and addressed it in Romans 9:18 - 23:
“So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
Faith is accepting what God says and believing it when we don’t understand it. Humility is required for faith, for I must admit that my ability to comprehend is limited.
arlis
OK, thanks. Unfortunately, I do not know anything about those quotes. Where did they originate?
If God is all-powerful, why could He not specifically create — men and women that would willingly trust and follow him?
How do you know he wants people to willingly follow and trust Him?
How do you think He chooses to create those that will follow Him, and those that don’t?
Don’t we all view through the eyes of one whose understanding is limited by a world of time, so we cannot comprehend?
You are saying, basically, that what happens, happens, right?
If that was the belief of some group, I would make an effort to show you how wrong they are, but since it is the opinion of one person, You, there is no point.
What you just wrote, ALL OF IT is insane. It highlights how useless Protestantism has become for discerning truth. I don't need to quote anything Catholic, I'll just I'll let Martin Luther answer you:
“There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everyone will be his own rabbi: hence, the greatest scandals.”
“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.” You are an extra
Thanks for the kind words.
Just because Luther said something, really doesn’t make it so does it? He was just a man, like everyone else.
Well, I think the fatalistic “Que’ sera’, que’ sera’” thinking is quite different from faith in and an understanding of a sovereign, loving God who simply must rule over every molecule in the universe or He be not God.
I repeat: we do have choices, moment by moment. God did not create us robots. He created us specifically to have an intimate relationship with Him. A living being cannot have a relationship with a robot - a machine.
I daily can choose to walk with Him, which is a moment-by-moment joyous finding of His perfect will which is always for our best even when it hurts beyond comprehension (Romans 8:28, 29). I am close friends with one of the families whose daughter was murdered at Virginia Tech, known the girl since birth, she played my wife’s grand piano many times, and I was honored to bring the main msg. at her memorial service.
Was the daughter’s murder painful? Beyond description...I was there with the family from early that morning when they first talked with her (my son was at Tech at the same time and had called me), to their finding out she was one of those killed.
Her parents will tell you today it was God’s perfect will, and they are being used all over the state to minister to others. If you haven’t read it, you might read “The Shack” to get a perspective of how God can reign over the worst events and redeem them - turn them for good. They give the book to most everyone they meet. The staff at Tech who stay in touch with the families of those killed have told them they and one other Christian family are markedly different from all of the other families who are not Christians and who are still angry, bitter, hurting.
Again, we cannot comprehend God. We can only accept by faith what He has revealed about Himself. Because we will always be the creature, and He the Creator, I don’t think we will even comprehend Him when we leave this short breath of a life. But then, it won’t be by faith, but we will see it clearly.
Until then, we trust. We believe. He is LOVE.
I would encourage you to simply read the book/gospel of John, and ponder every statement of Jesus and its implications. Then boldly ask God personally to speak to you in revealing Himself and answering any questions you have! I guarantee you will be surprised.
arlis
As I have said, free will is not the issue.
Of course we can choose to do anything. But we both agree that God knows what we will choose. I only ask why you think God creates those that will do bad things and those that will be victims of those bad things. We agree that God knowingly created those that are Christians, and have gotten over their grief, but He also knowingly created those that are not Christians and haven’t gotten over their grief.
We also agree that we cannot comprehend why God does what he does and we accept by faith, what God has revealed about Himself. God has created those that are of different faiths, in the same way that He has created Christians, hasn’t He? He obviously creates people of all different faiths, knowingly. It would seem then, that any faith that God has created within each of us, must be legitimate. Afterall, we can’t comprehend Him, can we?
I have talked/communicated with God, and this is His result for me...He creates each of us individually, for His plan.
Why do you then follow his system of interpreting scripture according to your own ideas?
In order to discover the true religion, one must start with one absolute truth, then build on that with more absolute truths, till one has a foundation on which one can go forward and build on the “building” of truth, the true religion. If there is not one absolute truth in a religion, an absolute truth, that if denied by someone, makes them a heretic, and separates them from the religion, “casts them out into the exterior darkness: where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”, then it is not the true religion, it is just some sayings to make one feel good about themselves.
Let’s take the so-called system called “Protestantism”. What absolute truth does that system have that if not believed, makes one lose their eternal life?
Jesus Christ is God, 100% equal to the Father? The answer according to Protestants is NO, for there are many Protestants that don't believe Christ is God, and are not consider heretics (not Christians) by other Protestants. Therefore, that "Christ is God, 100% equal to the Father", is not an absolute truth which must be believed in your system.,/p.
Therefore, it follows that if Jesus Christ is not God, why should you listen to him, “he is just a man like everyone else”? Why should you listen to the New Testament, it’s written by men, and it’s about “a man like everyone else”? Why should you accept the decision of men to leave out 100+ letters out of the New Testament?
But of course, why should you listen to me, "just a man, like everyone else?
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