Posted on 08/30/2010 3:42:03 PM PDT by SouthDixie
Okay, I'll be honest, I am not a great follower of Glenn Beck yet I am trying to understand what exactly his message is. I try to understand by listening to what others have to say and by watching his shows and rallys.
Today on his show, Glenn said, "If you don't believe in giving 10% tithe, why are you going to that church?" I about had to pick my jaw off the floor. I was not aware attending church was about a 10% tithe and if you didn't have the funds, why attend?
In my minds eye, this is NOT how to attract people to church or to the word of God. God is about Love, Compassion and Unity. In these economic times people are barely able to care for their families let alone give 10% of their income to churches that havn't exactly set a very "spiritual" example.
I am not sure I enjoy where Glenn Beck is taking us.
I agree with your assessment that Beck is actually a Christian but is in the Mormon church. Eventually that will not work, but for now I give him credit for trying to do what is right. I will not bash anyone who is actually doing something positive in a godless world filled with hatred and venom.
Those who argue about his tithing or his motives would be better suited to look within their own lives and do what is right.
A. AS WE PROSPER...
1. Paul charged Christians to give as they prosper - 1Co 16:1-2
2. He instructed them to give according to what they have - 2 Co 8:12-13
— Our giving should be in keeping with the level of our
prosperity
B. SEEK TO EXCEL...
1. Paul called for Christians to abound (excel, ESV) in the grace of giving - 2Co 8:7
2. With God's aid, we can abound in every good work - 2Co 9:8-10
3. Jesus tells us to surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees(remember their meticulous tithing?) - Mt 5:20; cf. Mt 23:23
— If the Pharisees gave tithes (actually 20-30%), do we surpass them by giving any less?
C. DO SO WILLINGLY...
1. There must be a willing mind prompting our giving - 2Co 8:12
2. We cannot give with a grudging obligation or of necessity
- 2Co 9:5,7
— We must give because we want to, not because we have to
D. AIM FOR EQUALITY...
1. Paul did not expect others to be eased at our expense - 2 Co 8:13
2. Rather, that our abundance supply others’ lack - 2Co 8:14
3. Moving in the direction of more equality between brethren
- 2Co 8:14-15
— Giving should be in the direction of the greater to the lesser(both as individuals and as congregations)
E. SOW BOUNTIFULLY...
1. Again, our giving should seek to excel (abound) - 2Co 8:7
2. If you sow bountifully, you will reap bountifully - 2Co 9:6
3. Not for personal gain, but to abound for even more good works- 2Co 9:8-10
— Seek to give bountifully, that you might give even more!
F. GIVE PURPOSELY...
1. Each one is to give as they purpose in their heart - 2Co 9:7
2. That is, with careful planning and intention, not as an
afterthought
— Budget beforehand to give purposely and willingly (see below)
G. WITH CHEERFULNESS...
1. God loves a cheerful giver - 2Co 9:7
2. Giving cannot be with a begrudging spirit, or sense of
obligation
— If we cannot give cheerfully, then our giving is not acceptable to God!
MORE IMPORTANT THEN TITHE IS OUR ATTITUDE IN OUR HEART
>>Tithe + special offerings<<
Yep, the Assembly of God church I went to for 18 years called it tithes and offerings. I call it giving. When I went to that church I drove a bus for ten years carrying kids to church who’s parents used us as Sunday morning baby sitting. Yeah, that sounds cynical, but it’s not. I’m merely stating what was going on. If it meant we could get the children of drunks, drug addics, or just plain narcissistic to church, that’s great.
I also played trombone in the orchestra or ran sound for the services for pretty much the entire time I was there.
Why am I saying this? Because although I liked the place and the people, and even the message, and was VERY involved, I did have a few points of disagreement that only grew as I read the bible more and more. They are:
== That church was Pre-trib, but I became mid-trib
== That church believed in NO drinking, but the Bible, NOWHERE, advocates no drinking. It only talks about getting drunk. They are two different things.
== That church believed in “tithes and offerings”, yet it is solely an old testament phenomenon. And the idea of giving is all over the new testament, but it is NEVER called tithing.
==That church strongly clung to a Pre-Trib rapture view.
==That church has a “Christian Flag” complete with its own “pledge of allegiance”.
==They had messages in tongues with interpretations.
Those things didn’t cause me to stop going (except I disagreed with the church on them), except the last one was part of it. That is because all of the messages were generic stuff. You know, God saying “you are my people, I’m your Father, Trust me”. That sort of stuff. It didn’t contradict scripture so, although It made me nervous, I saw it as somewhat harmless.
Then one day the message (This was 1997) was that “in 2000 all the computers are going to crash”). Being a Y2K code remediator at the time, I found it unlikely that the word “ALL” applied. However, I finally had a “message” that I could use to confirm the validity of what I was hearing.
And we all know what happened, but I left the church before that for other reasons.
This is rambling but let me just sum up:
I don’t follow my church lockstep just because they say it is true. And I don’t tolerate adding stuff that is clearly not there and picking and choosing what specific rules they want to pull from the old testament and pile onto the back of Christians.
I strongly believe in the concept of giving of my abundance and it does work, be it ten percent 20 percent, or whatever. I’ve seen and experienced the results, both physically and spiritually. But tithing is strictly a Jewish thing. I choose not to participate in “tithing”, for I am not Jewish.
And there is LOTS of new testament scripture about giving, even regarding giving to preachers, etc.
You said: “Look, you may not like tithing, but churches have to pay their bills too.”
My argument is not with giving, which is very much addressed in the new testament. It is about tithing, specifically.
See my post 163, I think it will clarify where I am coming from here.
My understanding is also that when tithing was instituted, the church and government were one and the same thing.
So I’d willingly tithe if my tax bill went down from 50% to 10% of my income.
That being said, I give what I can.
>>I was always heard that 10% was a tithe, anything above that was an offering.<<
Yeah, that is what my old AG church taught. But the more I read the bible, the more I thought it was them discovering a way to force new testament giving into an old testament paradigm and get even more than 10%.
Not that giving more is bad, but it is the type of contortions Ptolomy went through to get his model of how the solar system to work until it got so contorted he just had to abandon it.
Same here.
I agree with C.S. Lewis that God used the Jews to “beat into mankind” who He is and His plan for mankind. Tithing was a part and it was very well documented and spelled out. Then the law was completed in Jesus, including the Sabath, BTW, but that is the subject of another thread.
So, Jews have a clean 10%. No more, no less. Christians live in the age of personal freedom and a personal relationship with their Creator. It is “squishier”.
I think of it this way: Those cars at autopia at Disneyland that motor around a track with a rail in the middle are like the old testament jewish law. You get in and steer, but if you go very far off direction you hit the rail and it keeps you on the road. Christianity is like our modern highway system. You have the same road with the same rules, but no rail. You have MUCH more freedom and autonomy and will still be within the rules, but you can choose to go completely off course.
BTW, Islam is like the “kiddie ride” cars on the track where the steering wheel doesn’t even work. The guides on the car are very close to the rail and it just takes you precisely around. You just get in and go along for the ride.
>>I was always heard that 10% was a tithe, anything above that was an offering.<<
Bottom line is that the old testament talks about tithing. The new talks about giving. And don’t tell your church this, but most of your giving can be to those other than the church and you are still obeying God, if you are doing it prayerfully. The the new testament clearly teaches that the worker deserves his wages.
What makes anyone think that the tithing has disappeared? The crucifixion took away animal sacrifices, and brought us grace. Then again Jesus said, “I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it” and “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
So which is it?
“Jesus certainly said that tithing was important.”
Matthew 23:23
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
To the best of my knowledge, this is the only time Jesus ever mentions tithing. Notice a couple of things. First, look at what they tithed. Second, and most important, look at the tense. It is telling them what they “should have” done. Past tense.
He could have said, “you slaughtered the unblemished lamb as a sacrifice, and this you should have done” and he would have been accurately portraying Jewish law. But that is by no means saying that Christians should also do it.
Finally, look at the context of the whole thing. Why is Jesus saying this to them? My take is that they were saying they obeyed the letter of the law in something minor, which they were puffing up, and ignoring what REALLY mattered. Among other things...
Bottom line is that the Old Testament talks about ithing. The New talks about giving. And don’t tell your church this, but most of your giving can be to those other than the church and you are still obeying God, if you are doing it prayerfully. The the New Testament clearly teaches that the worker deserves his wages.
My church gets really ticked (maybe it's the pastor mostly) if members give other places and call it "tithe." Personally I'm having issues with two things:
1) We are personally really strapped for money. There is no extra any more. I work two days every other week. What is worse/better: going into debt and still pay tithes? or get out of debt and NOT pay tithe? Don't want to give God the leftovers. My husband is very hung up on the ten percent thing. 2)Where the tithe/giving goes in our church. It seems to mostly go, like government programs, for administrative costs---not for curriculum for the kids, or Sunday School, or those in need. IMHO, that's how most evangelical churches are, and it bothers me. Giving to the church is NOT necessarily giving to God.
>>Yup; I’ve heard this; but just WHERE is it to be found in the NT?<<
To the best of my knowledge, it’s not there. When I have heard it in sermons (and it’s been years since I’ve heard it in a sermon) it seemed to be along the lines of asking people to put God to the test, but in the “good” way. That is, give ‘till it hurts and you will find that you are actually blessed and filled with more joy.
There was a church in Cashmere, WA that did something big in this area. If you went to this church you were somehow “special” in the community. It was kinda weird. Anyway, they had this building fund and people were even getting second mortgages on their homes to give huge offerings.
The church treasurer ran off with all the money.
To be frank, I consider my income tax to be a sort of “tithe”. It is “helping” a lot of poor people. Food stamps, welfare, education, section 8 housing.
And my sales tax is just barely under 10%. Same goes there.
I’m saying that tongue in cheek of course, but only sort of.
I believe in paying my church in a Luke 10:1-8 sort of way. The rest goes to helping the poor, widows, friends, etc. And in this economy, more and more it is friends.
And my sales tax is just barely under 10%. Same goes there.
I’m saying that tongue in cheek of course, but only sort of.
Tongue in cheek, or not, you have a point. It's going to "Caesar" to do God's work, in a way. My FIL stayed with us for two months this past year, really liked having him, but was rough financially at a time when we could least afford it. Hmmmm...husband wouldn't go along with it, but that could count as giving.
So your giving to the church is to help with the wages of those working there? (sorry to ask so many questions, but this has been on my mind lately anyway)
To be frank, I consider my income tax to be a sort of “tithe”. It is “helping” a lot of poor people. Food stamps, welfare, education, section 8 housing. And my sales tax is just barely under 10%. Same goes there.
I’m saying that tongue in cheek of course, but only sort of.
Tongue in cheek, or not, you have a point. It's going to "Caesar" to do God's work, in a way. My FIL stayed with us for two months this past year, really liked having him, but was rough financially at a time when we could least afford it. Hmmmm...husband wouldn't go along with it, but that could count as giving.
So your giving to the church is to help with the wages of those working there? (sorry to ask so many questions, but this has been on my mind lately anyway)
“If you’d answered the call of the Holy Spirit; you’d be SAVED! “
Wow! You actually apparently think you are God Himself and You know who is going to hell and who is not. Now, that is really something.
“Jesus is the Lord.” I said that and believe it with all my heart.
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost”
1 Corinthians 12:3
This is what I mean about blaspheming the Holy Ghost - by putting words in His mouth that He never has said; i.e., that Saundra Duffy is going to hell.
I went to 163 and read your position and now I understand where you are coming from. But, I and my wife will continue to tithe to the Baptist church we attend.
Elsie,
I should have said, “I don’t know what Bible Glen Beck uses....”
But let me say this again, I cannot listen to him on the radio, my old ears cannot tell who is talking when two or three or even more are all talking at the same time. His show confuses me. I do not have cable so I cannot watch him on tv, all I know about his is that which I have read here and other news sites.
Sandy, did the other churches you previously attended tell you that you were to be interviewed at the end of each year during “tithing settlement” to ensure you had paid all you were “supposed” to? That some bishops would even request tax records to verify said amounts were paid in full?
Did those same churches use tithing in the Temple Recommend questions? Namely, that if you weren’t a “full” tithe payer, you couldn’t get your TR, hence you couldn’t take out your endowments, be assured of the Celestial Kingdom, etc.?
Therein lies some of the primary reasons/differences. The LdS use other rites to coerce the payment of tithing and then follow-up with interviews to ensure said payment.
It is described as “voluntary”, but any mormon that wants to achieve exhaltation must pay their tithing in order to get the boxes checked. So then, is it really “voluntary” since mormons are taught to seek their endowments that will permit them to reside with God in the Celestial Kingdom? Isn’t that the goal members of the church are taught to seek after? If they don’t, what’s their reward for not being full tithe payers?
If it is supposed to be between you and God, why is the Bishopric and Stake Presidency involved? Doesn’t God know what’s in your heart? Wouldn’t God know if you were faithful in paying a full tithing?
For me, that’s the rub. The LdS church describes it one way, yet puts it into effect another way.
Sandy why do you think God doesnt love you ???
I find only the one scripture regarding giving to a church. However, there is lots of other scripture regarding giving and helping:
Acts 20:35
In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ “
1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
1 Timothy 5:10
and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
1 Timothy 5:16
If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.
And here is a very interesting one (the famous “camel through the eye of a needle thing):
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Notice even there Jesus does not discuss giving to any church organization
There is lots more. Go here and search the new testament for words like “giv” (that gets give, giving, etc.), help, tithe, tithing, storehouse, worker, wages, etc.
biblegateway.com
Augment what you find with what you already know from your daily reading. A pretty clear picture forms, and it may contradict what your pastor is saying.
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