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To: metmom; roamer_1
No one's calling roamer a liar -- he just has to post pictures of before and afte and the name of the pent-e-costal Benny Hinn like pastor at whose healing service he got healed.

No one has denied that miracles can happen, that God does heal. However, Mr. Roamer went to attack post #697 which specificaly pointed out charlatans like Peter Popoff and co. If Mr. Roamer got cured by him or Hagin or Hinn or Hogan, then he has a point against post #697. If not, then he has jumped off the topic by talking about himself -- a violation of forum rules on "making it personal".

For your own edification, I repost #697 TO WHICH Roamer went on his tangent:

How to Fake a (Pentecostal) Healing
Pentecostals often remain in Pentecostalism despite many misgivings for one simple reason:  the healings.  They may admit that many of the practices and teachings are unbiblical.  They may confess that there is rampant abuse and manipulation.  But they shake off the doubts because they have seen so many supernatural events--people stand up out of wheelchairs, back pain healed, etc.  And so they wonder, "If this is really so bad, why are so many people being healed?  Isn't it all worth it if sick people are being restored to health?"
 
However, Pentecostal church services are all about showmanship and appearance.  It is surprisingly easy to fake healings, even to hold entire healing services in which people appear to be 'healed' all over the church and yet no one is really cured.  How is this accomplished?  The trick is usually, as Miracle Max said in the quote above, to focus on problems which can be resolved some way other than strictly supernaturally, to learn to 'heal' those who are only partly ill or can be made to seem well when they are not.
 
Let's examine some of the most common 'healing' tricks in the Pentecostal experience:
 
(a)  Bigfoot Sightings.  Perhaps the largest category of fake healings is what I call "Bigfoot Sightings", because, like the mythical Bigfoot, all that is known about these healings is that somebody else swears that they saw them and that they are real.
 
Most often, it is the pastor or a visiting evangelist who relates stories of healings that occurred somewhere else.  When these 'healings' are described in great detail to excited crowds, people tend to forget that they never actually witnessed the event and have no reason to believe that it actually occurred.  In the retelling of the story, people often relate the healing as though they witnessed it themselves.  It is only upon careful questioning that the truth emerges:  nobody actually saw this one; it was just a story told to the group by some convincing-sounding guy with a microphone.
 
EXAMPLE:  Evangelist/ missionary David Hogan often uses this technique.  Every time he speaks to groups, he claims to have raised 400+ people from the dead and performed many amazing miracles.  Although he relates many incredible stories, he never actually performs miracles at his meetings . . . he just talks about all the miracles that he supposedly performed somewhere else. 
 
Hogan's fans often describe him as a great man of God who heals the sick and raises the dead.  When directly asked, however, they admit that they have never actually seen Hogan do any miracles.  The only reason they have to believe that Hogan has ever performed any miracles is that Hogan himself claims that he has.
 
(b)  "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"  Occasionally, 'healings' are fakes, plain and simple.  Many evangelists believe that seeing people apparently get healed raises the level of faith of the parishioners and so opens the door for real healings.  They use this as an excuse to orchestrate healing shows that are planned in advance simply to shock and amaze the crowd.
 
EXAMPLE:  It is difficult to say how often this technique is used, because evangelists who employ it are usually quite careful to cover their tracks.  However, occasionally, scandals open up that allow a glimpse inside such misdealings.  One of the best known examples of the intentional and calculated use of fake healings involved cult leader Jim Jones.  Jones began his ill-fated career as a Pentecostal revivalist and healer.  One of his favorite techniques involved healing people of 'cancer' by apparently removing chunks of foul-smelling material from their bodies that he claimed were the cancerous tissues.  People's Temple insiders later confessed that the 'cancers' were actually rotten chicken livers, produced at the appropriate time during the church service with a little slight-of-hand.
 
(c)  MOSTLY disabled or ALL disabled?  One of the most obvious and most popular techniques used by faith healers is based upon a popular misunderstanding of disabilities.  When someone is in a wheelchair, people tend to assume that the person cannot walk AT ALL.  This is rarely the case.  Most people in wheelchairs can stand and even walk a little, just not far and not well.  Likewise, when a person is said to be blind or deaf, people tend to assume that the person cannot see or hear AT ALL.  Again, this is rarely the case.  Most blind people can see a little, just not very well, and most people who are 'deaf' are really only partially deaf.
 
This explains why many 'miracles' that occur in faith-healing services appear to be only partial healings.  A healer may tell someone in a wheelchair to stand and walk.  The person shakily stands and limps painfully across the stage.  The crowd cheers, because they think that this is amazing progress and that the person is on his or her way to a full recovery.  But, in fact, it may be no improvement at all.  Likewise, many healers will test a healing of a blind person by holding up a handkerchief and asking the person to grab it.  When the blind person is able to take hold of the handkerchief, the crowd is amazed, not realizing that there is nothing remarkable about a partly blind person being able to see a large white object held only inches from his or her face.
 
EXAMPLE:  This is one of the most common healing techniques and is used by many, many faith healers.  One of the best known examples is Peter Popoff, who used a few trusted collegues to scout for healing candidates among the crowds that came to his healing services.  Popoff's scouts always asked people in wheelchairs if they could walk a little or not at all.  Any that could walk a little were called up to the front for 'healing' during the subsequent service.  The technique was exposed by skeptic James Randi who placed actors in the audience to claim that they had disabilities.  Randi's actors were interviewed by Popoff's scouts, and the information transmitted to Popoff via a radio transmitter.  Randi intercepted and recorded the transmissions, which fed Popoff information on various audience members, including which of them would make good 'healing' candidates. 
there are more examples in the link --> read 'em and you too can form a sub-division of the Quixotic grouping!eys and his authority away from him." (Ibid., 4-6.)

"As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word."


Why exactly do you believe these?


868 posted on 09/01/2010 9:59:40 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Cronos; roamer_1
No one's calling roamer a liar -- he just has to post pictures of before and afte and the name of the pent-e-costal Benny Hinn like pastor at whose healing service he got healed.

There's more than one way of calling people liars.

Unless he offers you proof, you're not going to believe him? And just who are you to determine the validity of what he posted?

And if it doesn't meet your mettle, then what? Demand more proof from him? Endless demands for more and more proof to meet a never able to be satisfied standard?

937 posted on 09/01/2010 3:28:19 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos; roamer_1

For the record, I have little use for televangelists. I don’t trust any of them and have never believed that what I’ve seen on TV is legit.

That doesn’t mean however, that NONE of them are.

If roamer_1 says he got healed by prayer, I am not going to call him a liar by not believing him unless he meets some arbitrary, useless demands of proof that I conjured up to me that I couldn’t validate anyway.

And you couldn’t either if he provided them to you.


938 posted on 09/01/2010 3:34:29 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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