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To: D-fendr
People do it every day (sic: say no to God), you likely included, all over the world.

Sure. Unbelievers say no constantly to the gospel call or anything that would please God. They will NEVER say yes unless God intervenes. This is what David states when he say,

Believers, like Jonah and most certainly like me, say no to God as well. The difference with believers is God, like the gracious and loving Father that He is, brings believers around to His way of thinking-even if it means casting us into the belly of a fish for a time.

The Lord shepherds us. He WILL use that rod and staff to guide us to green pastures. He leads us where we should go and restores us for His righteousness sake-not ours. Does this sound the least bit familiar? It's Psalms 23.

Believers are a stiff-neck people who are bent on following their own sin nature. And left to our own devices we would degenerate into the wickedness of the world. Ever served on a staff to pick out carpeting for the church? God guides us past that to work His will. There is no greater evidence in scripture of this than Jonah.

5,809 posted on 09/17/2010 2:09:31 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
The difference with believers is

They believe.

5,811 posted on 09/17/2010 2:30:08 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: HarleyD

I think you could take a look at your view and see circular reasoning, combined with hindsight.

Everything you say in this context is only known, by you, looking backwards. Like this: had he been elect he would have believed, and we can know he’s not elect because he didn’t believe.

Consider eliminating the circle. He’s elect because he believed.


5,812 posted on 09/17/2010 2:34:10 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: HarleyD

To complete the thought: God is omniscient, so he has perfect foresight.

When he sees the elect, he sees those who will believe. Not whom he will create only such that cannot *not*, believe, not those he will force to believe, but who will believe.

When He says elect, it’s a certain knowledge, when He says my sheep, it’s a certain knowledge. But knowing what choices we will make is not the same as making them for us.

Lord knows he gives us plenty of opportunity and reasons to believe, but He created us with free will and we can choose otherwise.

Perhaps because He valued real relationships with real people.


5,813 posted on 09/17/2010 2:40:57 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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