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To: Cronos; metmom
both sides did wrong things, both had blood on their hands.

No, Rome's attempt at moral equivalency is a lie proven by history.

Protestants argue with their enemies and try to persuade them by the weight of the Scriptures.

Rome murders those who disagree with Rome.

Hundreds of thousands slaughtered during the Inquisitions, the St. Batholomew's Day Massacre, the Albigensian Crusade, the Crusades against the Eastern Orthodox church, the reformers who dared to preach from the Bible...the list is endless.

And to that we can add the 800,000 Protestant Tutsis who were hacked to death by the Roman Catholic Hutus in Rwanda in 1994.

What a racket. Rome pretends to be Barry Fitzgerald when in fact it is much closer to Barry Soetoro.

1,773 posted on 09/06/2010 11:17:33 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
Calvin and Persecution

" Calvin and Persecution "
Why the Silence!

"...that an end could be put to their machinations in no other way than cutting them off by an ignominious death" (John Calvin).

H.R Pike writes, "It was Scripture plus the sword of the state, hangings, burning at the stake, prison, tortures..." (The Other Side of John Calvin, p. 54).

Below is evidence that this is not overstatement!

Most who call themselves Calvinist say very little about the famous Reformer having a persecuting side. This reflects a selective silence that began quite early. Foxe, a contemporary and friend of Calvin (he outlived Calvin by 23 years), gives not one paragraph to the many persecutions that took place at Calvin's Geneva and elsewhere across Europe. Only those who suffered at the hand of Rome are mentioned (Pike, n.122).

CHRONOLOGY OF CALVIN'S LIFE


CALVIN'S STATEMENTS SUPPORTING PERSECUTION
PERSECUTIONS AT CALVIN'S GENEVA

The Minutes Book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-59 (translated by Stefan Zweig, Erasmus: The Right to Heresy):

Sources quoted in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, vol. 8: From Other Sources: "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" James 3:11.


Compiled by Jack Moorman
www.BibleForToday.org

1,788 posted on 09/07/2010 12:59:37 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
Calvin and Persecution

" Calvin and Persecution "
Why the Silence!

"...that an end could be put to their machinations in no other way than cutting them off by an ignominious death" (John Calvin).

H.R Pike writes, "It was Scripture plus the sword of the state, hangings, burning at the stake, prison, tortures..." (The Other Side of John Calvin, p. 54).

Below is evidence that this is not overstatement!

Most who call themselves Calvinist say very little about the famous Reformer having a persecuting side. This reflects a selective silence that began quite early. Foxe, a contemporary and friend of Calvin (he outlived Calvin by 23 years), gives not one paragraph to the many persecutions that took place at Calvin's Geneva and elsewhere across Europe. Only those who suffered at the hand of Rome are mentioned (Pike, n.122).

CHRONOLOGY OF CALVIN'S LIFE


CALVIN'S STATEMENTS SUPPORTING PERSECUTION
PERSECUTIONS AT CALVIN'S GENEVA

The Minutes Book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-59 (translated by Stefan Zweig, Erasmus: The Right to Heresy):

Sources quoted in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, vol. 8: From Other Sources: "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" James 3:11.


Compiled by Jack Moorman
www.BibleForToday.org

1,792 posted on 09/07/2010 1:34:44 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
John Calvin: Facts and extensive reading list
Perhaps not only irritability but also self-importance were exposed in 1545 when John Calvin by letter solicited Luther’s opinion on what John had written. Luther refused, arguing that his responses by letter were often carried around and exploited independent of Luther’s main writings. John was enraged. In a fury he wrote:

[Luther] allows himself to be carried beyond all due bounds with his love of thunder...in the Church we must always be upon our guard, lest we pay too great a deference to men...If this specimen of overbearing tyranny has sprung forth already as the early blossom in the spring-tide of a reviving Church, what must we expect in a short time...Let us therefore bewail the calamity of the Church...

         

         Calvin’s rage was unwise. In 1545 Luther was not only a dying man but one often immobile from excruciating bouts with kidney stones. Yet in 21st Century eyes even John’s self-important rage pales beside his intolerance of opposing views. For Calvin the persecuted became Calvin the persecutor. He particularly disliked a man named Servetus for his expressed views on Christian doctrines. In a letter to a friend John warned:

Servetus lately wrote to me and coupled with his letter a long volume of his delirious fancies...He would like to come here if it is agreeable to me. But I do not wish to pledge my word for his safety. For, if he comes, I will never let him depart alive, if I have any authority...

         That grim warning—‘I will never let him depart alive’—was not just rhetoric. Foolishly, Servetus did show up in Geneva. And John Calvin did have some ‘authority’. Servetus was arrested and condemned to die. Genevans feared no interference because the Catholics in France had also given Servetus a death sentence. Just what was John Calvin’s part in the execution? Could he have prevented it? It seemed his mercy extended only to recommending beheading instead of burning. Genevans burned Servetus to death in 1553.


[Sources: T.H.L. Parker, John Calvin: a biography. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1975, and Jules Bonnet, editor, Letters of John Calvin. UK: Banner of Truth Trust, abbreviated English translation of 1855-57 edition in French, 1980.]

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1,793 posted on 09/07/2010 1:42:46 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
Persecution by Calvinists

In the fall of 1561 the Calvinists of France, well supplied with money, took arms under Conde' and Coligny and began marching through the country to mobilization points, often under the leadership of preachers armed to the teeth.

While these men thundered against the Scarlet Women of Babylon and preached slaughter with a fervor more becoming to Mohammedans than to men who called themselves Christians... they had begun to sack bishop's houses and churches, to destroy altars and images of Christ and of the saints, and to deprive Catholics of their arms.

The storm of hate, which had so long been gathering, burst in all its fury. Almost simultaneously, as if by a concerted signal, well-organized bands of Calvinists fell upon the Catholic churches, convents, schools and libraries. At Montpellier they sacked all the sixty churches and convents, and put one hundred-fifty priests and monks to the sword. At Nimes they made a great pile of statues and relics in front of the Cathedral, danced around it while the flames arose, yelled that they would have no more Mass or idolaters, and then wrecked and plundered the churches. At Montauban they dragged the Poor Clare from their convent, exposed them half-naked to the jibes of the paid mob, shouted insults at them and told them to get married. At Castres, in December, a Reformed Consistory or Sanhedrin, ordered the city officials to take every one found on the streets to Huguenot sermons. Priests were dragged from the altars, the Poor Clare were scourged at the whip's end, peasants were driven with blows to hear the preachers inveigh with their peculiar nasal intonation against the Mass, Confession, the Pope. The fields and vineyards around Catholic villages where the people refused to listen to the preaching were burned or cut down.

Within a year the Calvinists, according to one of their own estimates, "murdered 4,000 priests, monks and nuns, expelled or maltreated 12,000 nuns, sacked 20,000 churches, and destroyed 2,000 monasteries " (Novuvelle Collection de memoires relatif a l'histoire de France, Ch. XI, p. 512)with their priceless libraries and works of art. The rare manuscript collection of the ancient monastery of Cluny was irreparably lost, with many others. Sacred vessels from the churches were melted into money to pay German mercenaries, who were urged to be ruthless.

Coligny took an active part in many of the atrocities. He displayed such cold and vindictive cruelty, especially to priests and nuns, that Catholics came to call him Holofernes.(21) In some places the entrails of the victims were plucked forth, stuffed with straw, and given to the horse of the Huguenot troopers to eat. Hundreds of cities and villages were burned. Lyons and its prosperous commerce were ruined.

This ancient fury, deliberately cultivated, spared not even the dead. Not only was the tomb of William the Conqueror destroyed, but the venerated bodies of holy men and women who had spent their lives in the service of God and of the poor were dragged from their resting-places, trampled, burned, thrown into rivers. A mob cast down the statue of Saint Joan from the bridge at Orleans. Other fanatics threw the remains of Saint Irenaeus and Saint Martin of Tours into the Loire. In Poiters they destroyed the relics of Saint Hilary and precious books written by his hand. Breaking into the tomb of Saint Francis of Paula at Plessis-les-Tours, they found the body whole and incorrupt after more than half a century; instead of being awed by the phenomenon, they dragged it at the end of a rope thought the streets, and burned it. A few of the saint's bones were found afterward by Catholics and preserved in various church of the Order of Minims.

Not only those who had laid down their lives for Christ, but Christ Himself, seemed a special object of hatred to these men who called themselves Christians and taught the damnation of infants and the predestination of many souls to Hell. As in all anti-Christian revolutions, statues of the Savior were spat upon, knocked down and demolished. The Body of Christ was often injured and reviled in the Blessed Sacrament. At Nimes, in Paris and others places, the tabernacles were broken open, and the Host thrown out and trampled upon, both by men and by horses.

Although these atrocities were perpetrated by a small minority in an overwhelmingly Catholic country, all the forces of the national and local governments seemed paralyzed and impotent for the moment. The Calvinists had majority in the States-General and friends in the Parliament of Paris. There seemed to be men everywhere in important positions to protect them and to sidetrack any attempt to punish them.

Catherine, inspired by L' Hopital, issued and edict in January, 1562, giving the Calvinists the right to worship as they pleased outside the cities, provided the churches were restored and both sides abstained from violence. This was intended to mollify the Calvinists. It had no such effect. Taking if for the surrender it was, the Calvinists rejoiced over the first breach of the union of Church and State in France. They promptly destroyed the Cathedral in Beza's city, and drove away all the clergy. In part of Gascony no priest could be found within forty miles. More nuns were dragged form convents, more tabernacles opened and profaned. In February, just after the opening session of the Council of Trent (with French delegates present, thanks to the determination of their leader, the Cardinal of Lorraine) seventy Calvinist preachers met in solemn synod at Nimes and deliberately planned to destroy all the Catholic churches in the city and the diocese. They promptly proceeded to put the plan into execution, burned the Cathedral, and drove away all the priests. The reign of terror was not the impassioned unthinking work of an ignorant mob, but a carefully engineered program of spoliation, destruction and assassination.


1,794 posted on 09/07/2010 1:43:34 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
WIki books "The Christian polity of John Calvin

Over taking over of Roman churches, abolishing the Mass and profaning the Host, persecution of CAtholics, conversion of towns into Huguenot fiets, assassinations, ...
1,795 posted on 09/07/2010 1:48:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
Frightful outrages perpetrated by the Huguenots in France

Persecution of Catholics by Huguenots In the areas of France they controlled, Huguenots at least matched the harshness of the persecutions of their Catholic opponents. Atrocities A, B, and C, depictions that are possibly exaggerated for use as propaganda, are located by the author in St. Macaire, Gascony. In scene A, a priest is disemboweled, his entrails wound up on a stick until they are torn out. In illustration B a priest is buried alive, and in C Catholic children are hacked to pieces. Scene D, alleged to have occurred in the village of Mans, was "too loathsome" for one nineteenth-century commentator to translate from the French. It shows a priest whose genitalia were cut off and grilled. Forced to eat his roasted private parts, the priest was then dissected by his torturers so they can observe him digesting his meal.
1,796 posted on 09/07/2010 1:52:17 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Al Hitan
This passage has been most improperly abused by the Anabaptists, and by others like them, to take from the Church the power of the sword. But it is easy to refute them; for since they approve of excommunication, which cuts off, at least for a time, the bad and reprobate, why may not godly magistrates, when necessity calls for it, use the sword against wicked men? They reply that, when the punishment is not capital, there is room allowed for repentance; as if the thief on the cross (Luke 23:42) did not find the means of salvation. I shall satisfy myself with replying, that Christ does not now speak of the office of pastors or of magistrates, but removes the offense which is apt to disturb weak minds, when they perceive that the Church is composed not only of the elect, but of the polluted dregs of society.
(Harmony of the Gospels; commentary on Matthew 13:39 [parable of the wheat and the tares], written in 1555)
1,797 posted on 09/07/2010 1:55:10 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. This is not laid down on human authority; it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for his Church. . . . Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that I would like to kill again the man that I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face.
(Defense of Orthodox Faith against the Prodigious Errors of the Spaniard Michael Servetus, written in 1554; in Philip Schaff, History of the Reformation, [New York, 1892], vol. 2, p. 791; cited in Stanford Rives, Did Calvin Murder Servetus?, Infinity, 2008, pp. 348-349)
1,798 posted on 09/07/2010 1:56:30 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Honour, glory, and riches will be the reward of your pains. Above all do not fail to rid the country of all those zealous scoundrels that stir up the people to make head against us. Such monsters should be smothered, as I have done here by Michel Servetus the Spaniard.
-- John Calvin

(Letter to the Marquis du Poet, Grand Chamberlain of the Queen of Navarre, 30 September 1561)
1,799 posted on 09/07/2010 1:57:50 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Tooo frightfully true.


1,803 posted on 09/07/2010 3:37:46 AM PDT by Quix (C Bosses plans: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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