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All the other nonsense trying to disprove what ALL Christians accept, as well as Jews, is grasping at straws.

In other words, what I posted was correct.

But how you or anyone chooses to regard the Scriptures, it will be between you and God. If you are open to hearing him he will tell you his truth. Or you can live in darkness, never knowing who or what to believe.

And therein lies the crux of the matter. We have Islam and to a certain extent Judaism, which is the religion of the book. Catholicism and especially the Orthodox are believers in the Faith. What's the difference?

A religion of the book depends entirely upon a set of writings and how they are written, what words are used, how they are translated, etc. Look at the example of the Leviticus passage. Insect versus fowl. Fowl versus bird. Walking on four legs versus walking on all fours. Insects and birds with four legs versus their actual number. Isaiah predicting desolation in various areas that are not desolated and in fact have been continuously populated all these thousands of years later. That extends to the NT as well. Luke can't get Paul's conversion circumstances right in two passages of Acts. Nobody has the inscription over Jesus on the Cross the same. Do we baptize in the Name of Jesus only, or in the Name of the Trinity?

Okay, a religion of the book is going to demand internal consistency, which the Bible most certainly does not have, or else everyone comes along and takes their own interpretation of which verse is truer than the others, and which to ignore. So, we have snippet-taking, we have denial of opposing verses, or we have schizophrenia. Or we have people realizing this and gradually losing their faith, because the perfect inspiration of the infallible Holy Spirit is not the imperfect understanding of the fallible men who wrote and then chose and then translated Scripture. That is the logical outcome of the religion of the book.

What the Catholics and Orthodox have? The belief in the Faith, handed down all the way from the Apostles. The importance of the Creeds is that they more closely identify the tenets of the Faith in order to communicate, and enforce, Orthodoxy. When we resay the Baptism in Church as a confirmation of our beliefs, the priest says the Creed in the form of questions, and in the summation, says, This is the Faith, handed down to us from the Apostles. The Athenasian Creed has that statement right in it.

There is some contention on this thread between infant baptism and non infant baptism. Each can be supported from Scripture. The Duality that many believe in can be supported from Scripture. The Monality that many believe in can be supported from Scripture. The super man Jesus favoured of God but not Divine can be supported from Scripture. The Faith does not allow for that diversity. We have the Trinitarian Formula and that is that. You enquired about belief? This is what we believe. The Apostolic Faith.

We don't consider it darkness; we consider the Light given by Jesus to the Apostles and they to us. Jesus created His Church - the big tent intended for all mankind, as it were. If you set up your own tent, does that mean you reject God's?

Last Sunday, the Gospel reading was Luke 18: 9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.' 13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.' 14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

Let us put some different descriptions in for the two individuals.

Two men entered the Church in order to pray. One man said to himself: Thank God I'm not like those Catholics; I am a believer and I know that I am saved. The second man prayed: O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.

Lest someone scoff; this is an actual prayer used in the Mass; there are also slightly different versions of it throughout the Mass, as well.

I think that I have illustrated something of the fundamental differences that we have, with only a little tongue in my cheek: a religion of the book and the assurance of salvation, versus a belief in the Faith and the hope of salvation. Comments?

Yes, let's put some different descriptions in for the two individuals.

Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a (A) and the other was a (B). The (A) took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this (B). I fast twice a week (I refrain from eating meat), I obey the commandments, I receive sacraments, I do good deeds, and I pay tithes on my whole income.' But the (B) stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I tell you, (B) went home justified, not (A); for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

We have faith and hope of salvation BECAUSE of the Holy Scriptures that God has provided as the authority for our faith and hope. Trusting in what men say is not a foundation for faith or hope.