Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
Would you divorce reason altogether from the understanding and discussion and explanation of religion? (I admit I dislike the phrase "relate to" -- it's soooo 60s!) C.S. Lewis certainly didn't reject logic in composing his essays.
not at all I find your little sans-culottes legs muscular though hairy, or is that tendenitis
I was merely stating my opinion. You are breaking the rules by mind reading again. You should really try harder to follow the rules you claim to know.
I could use some consultation on a question of ethics.
What is it called when somebody knowingly utters a falsehood?
What is it called when somebody knowingly utters a falsehood with the intention not only of obscuring the truth but also of causing harm?
That would be called a lie.
What is it called when somebody knowingly utters a falsehood with the intention not only of obscuring the truth but also of causing harm?
That would be called a damned lie.
Please return the favor. What is someone who tells these falsehoods called?
It was not thus that that pious and humble teacher thought—I speak of the most blessed Cyprian—when he said "that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own."6 And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it?" [1 Cor. 4.7.] And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe on God is not God's gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God's grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate... "Incline my heart unto Thy testimonies;" [Psalm 119.36.] or, "The steps of a man are ordered by the Lord, and He will will His way;" [Psalm 37.23.] or, "The will is prepared by the Lord;" [Prov. 8. see LXX.] or, "Let our Lord be with us as with our fathers; let Him not forsake us, nor turn Himself away from us; let Him incline our hearts unto Him, that we may walk in all His ways;" [1 Kings 8.57,58.] or, " I will give them a heart to know me, and ears that hear;" [Baruch 2.31.] or, "I will give them another heart, and a new spirit will I give them." [Ezek. 11.19.] Let them also hear this, "I will give my Spirit within you, and I will cause you to walk in my righteousnesses; and ye shall observe my judgments, and do them." [Ezek. 36.27.] Let them hear, "Man's goings are directed by the Lord, and how can a man understand His ways?" [Prov. 20.24.] Let them hear, "Every man seemeth right to himself, but the Lord directeth the hearts." [Prov. 21.2.] Let them hear, "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." [Acts 13.48.] Let them hear these passages, and whatever others of the kind I have not mentioned in which God is declared to prepare and to convert men's wills, even for the kingdom of heaven and for eternal life... ...although in my former little treatises I had proved by sufficiently appropriate proofs that faith also was the gift of God, there was found this ground of contradiction, viz., that those testimonies were good for this purpose, to show that the increase of faith was God's gift, but that the beginning of faith, whereby a man first of all believes in Christ, is of the man himself, and is not the gift of God,—but that God requires this, so that when it has preceded, other gifts may follow, as it were on the ground of this merit, and these are the gifts of God; and that none of them is given freely, although in them God's grace is declared, which is not grace except as being gratuitous. And you see how absurd all this is. Wherefore I determined, as far as I could, to set forth that this very beginning also is God's gift. And if I have done this at a greater length than perhaps those on whose account I did it might wish, I am prepared to be reproached for it by them, so long as they nevertheless confess that, although at greater length than they wished, although with the disgust and weariness of those that understand, I have done what I have done: that is, I have taught that even the beginning of faith, as continence, patience, righteousness, piety, and the rest, concerning which there is no dispute with them, is God's gift.
I would encourage you to actually read Augustine rather than cite clips form the internet approved by Rome. Read the book.
When some can no longer defend their theology the term “bigot” is brought out and paraded around. Or some baptist shows up and defends it for them. “Bigot” is a big old spit slush ball, you might want to invest in a helmet and a visor with wind sheild wipers
lol. You mean that Vatican Library where one day some old monk found a supposed manuscript in the trash can?
That Vatican Library???
Have it your way.
"By they words thou shalt be justified, and by the words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:37
LOL!
yeah, it’s the tendonitis, or, ah, something.
A fellow sinner, in need of Christ's redeeming?
Orange in no way is a affirmation of double predestination or Calvinism.
The Second Council of Orange concerns Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, rejecting both. It affirmed Augustine against Pelagianism; it denied the interpretation of Augustine as strict predestination.
In the Council of Trent, the Church condemned as heresy any doctrine asserting “since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished” rejecting Calvinism’s total depravity.
dr. e: “Rome says outside the Roman Catholic church, there is no salvation.”
MD: “False.”
Ten Facts Most Catholics Don’t Know (But Should!) (Catholic Caucus)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2549623/posts
7. There Is No Salvation Outside Of The Catholic Church – Originally stated by St. Cyprian, the Latin axiom “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” reminds us that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This dogma was declared at the Fourth Lateran Council and is a source of confusion for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. According to the Catechism, all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body. It does not mean that non-Catholics cannot achieve salvation. Individuals who are unaware that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church may still achieve salvation through the merits of the Church, despite their lack of knowledge.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#2G6
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
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And every Catholic I knew believed that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church, just as the church really does teach. Because, even for those who they claim are invincibly ignorant, the presumption is made that once they heard about it, they’d immediately join up with it.
No, it was just the opposite. He politely sat and listened. There was some question whether or not he knew what was being said, but I'm sure there were priests there that did. Imagine how he would have been condemned in the muslim world for walking out and applauded in the Jewish and Christian world.
2) Prudence. Pakistanis were already burning Christian churches on the threat alone of the koran burning, I think 3 churches were attacked. It's one thing for the pope to willingly choose martyrdom for himself, it's another for him to take as many people as he can with him.
I've been blessed to be able to contribute to groups like Gospel For Asia. I get regular reports on the persecution Christians face in this part of the world. If your church's leader stood up to these thugs it wouldn't have changed a thing, EXCEPT it would have helped clarify the distinction between being a Christian and a muslim.
Christianity does not get advanced by letting the forces of darkness control the stage.
Dang - someone makes up complete false theology, slaps it onto a group of people even though they adamantly state this is NOT what they believe (as though they wouldn’t know their own faith), and yet YOU’RE the “rule breaker”??? I’m not sure if that’s more pathetic or hilarious.
Christianity is blessed with martyrs who refused to water down or deny Truth. Leaders of Christian churches have to be stronger just as the congregations have to be stronger. It's not enough to silently disagree.
That is certainly true, but as a theological rebuttal, it is meaningless because God has revealed His predestination of all things to us in Scripture. What He keeps for Himself is the reason for His choices other than they are made "according to His good pleasure."
God created time. He created us in time.
There was an absolute point in time that God created the heavens and the earth and all things therein.
THAT is the moment we are talking about. At THAT moment, God "knew" everything that would occur for all time.
And that fact reveals to us that men's destinies are fixed because God has "declared the end from the beginning."
No one is denied faith. All who seek the Lord will find Him. But the ability and desire to seek the Lord comes from the Lord, according to His own purpose in creating men and the world.
And from this you get TULIP? No free will, double predestination, totally depraved, limited atonement?
Sorry.
Quoted as an attempt at some kind of refudiation of us is the following:
I have taught that even the beginning of faith, as continence, patience, righteousness, piety, and the rest, concerning which there is no dispute with them, is God's gift.
Not only have I often said almost exactly that, but I have repeatedly gone on to say that EVERY subsequent good work, either corporal or spiritual is also God's gift.
Yet there is often no interval, or an infinitessimal interval, between my posting such a remark and the beginning of an inquisition, which I have survived every time so far, because my inquisitors simply cannot believe what has been said by Catholics semper, ubique, et ab omnibus.
Calvinists, or some of them, seem to think they have full and exclusive rights to the idea that every good gift is from God, despite its being in Scripture, and think that their way of thinking of this is the only way.
This is so much a part of the "mentality" (as one of you says) they exhibit that they simply cannot accept the fact that a guy like me would swim the Tiber because after thought, study, prayer, and at personal expense, both emotional and financial, he concluded that, barring the Orthodox churches, he had never seen that truth propounded as well and as thoroughly anywhere other than in the Catholic Church and by her "doctors."
An instance of bigotry is seen when someone is so sure that he knows what you think that nothing you say or do can change his opinion.
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