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To: CynicalBear

When Peter denied Christ three times, he was forgiven by Christ’s death on the cross. But he still had to pay a price. After the Resurrection, he was publicly humiliated by being asked by Christ three times in front of all the Apostles if he really loved Him. Peter had to be cleansed not just of the sin, but of the guilt through penitent action and active affirmation.

It is the same with us. Christ redeemed us but we continue to sin. We are redeemed because we believe in Christ and God’s mercy, but we must still go through the steps, as Peter had to, to remove the guilt of that sin through penitent actions and active affirmation of our love for God. We can do it while we are alive, through Confession and penance. After we die, if we still have unreconciled guilt on our souls, we are sent to a place we can complete the process. This is Purgatory: the place we go to wipe away the vestiges of guilt and responsibility for our sin as we affirm our love for God and our belief that He will have mercy on us. Once we have “paid the last penny” and are cleansed of the guilt, we can be united to the wonderful purity of Heaven.

The Epistles are full of comments to people who, while they believe in Christ, are still being held to account for their poor behaviours. In fact, most of the epistles were written to correct believers’ behaviours and misconceptions. Why bother if they were “saved?” Because they weren’t exonerated.

There is a personal component to Salvation that requires action/conversion/obedience of us. Today’s Gospel about the Narrow Gate was a perfect example. In Luke 13: 22-30 we hear believers say they want in to Heaven because they are familiar with Jesus and have supped with Him and listened to Him teach in their streets. He replies that He “knows them not” and tells them to “depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.”

They knew Him and called Him “Lord,” but He did not know them. Why? Because their actions were sinful. They were “workers of iniquity” and the Master locked them out.


42 posted on 08/22/2010 9:37:40 PM PDT by Melian ("There is only one tragedy in the end, not to have been a saint." ~L. Bloy)
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To: Melian

“Christ three times in front of all the Apostles if he really loved Him”

Look at the Greek words Jesus used. The first two times He used the word Agapa which means an unconditional kind of love but Peter answered using the word Phileo or and emotional kind of love. The last time Jesus used the word Phileo which is when Peter appeared upset that Jesus had asked him a third time but this time using the word that Peter had answered with the first two times. Peter was not using the same word that has been translated love that Jesus was the first two times. There is much more to learn here from the different forms of each word used and the different commands Jesus gave to each answer Peter gave but not enough room here.

“There is a personal component to Salvation that requires action/conversion/obedience of us”

There is a very dangerous path taken with this concept. The thought that a person can, of his own accord or effort, atone for sins leads to the belief that one can earn, or be good enough, to please God. If one is to “pay” or “atone” for our sins here on earth it is denying that Jesus has already completely done that. If he did not, and we are still to do that, then His sacrifice was not complete. Of course it is true that there are consequences to our actions, thoughts, and emotions here on earth. At the point that we accept Jesus as our Savior and have the Spirit of God in us there is a separation between our earthly existence and our eternal or spiritual existence.

“. This is Purgatory: the place we go to wipe away the vestiges of guilt and responsibility for our sin”

Here, again, you are stating that Jesus sacrifice was not complete for the atonement of our sins. A concept, that states that WE must atone for the sins that Jesus sacrifice missed.

Purgatory is a word used to describe the place where those who died, who had obeyed all the Old Testament laws went before Jesus “redeemed us all” on the cross. Before Jesus death/sacrifice on the cross the souls of the faithful, under the law, went to Sheol or Hades. The souls of those unfaithful went to Gehanna which was separated from Sheol. Jesus went, when He “descended into Hell/Purgatory/Sheol” with the “keys of Sheol/Hades” to released those faithful to take them with him to heaven. The “holding place” that was Sheol was needed because Jesus had not yet made the perfect sacrifice. Once Jesus died on the cross that sacrifice had been made and there was no more need for a “holding place”. Today, because of the sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb redeemed souls go directly to heaven.

Once again, I will state that to believe that a person needs to atone for his own sins is to deny that Jesus sacrifice on the cross was somehow not complete.

The last point you made was of people calling him Lord. Once again, the original word needs to be looked at. In England, people are referred to as lord. That certainly is different then when we call Jesus Lord. When a person said lord, lord, they were not saying the same as when we call Jesus Lord.


43 posted on 08/23/2010 8:12:33 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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