Posted on 08/18/2010 1:22:01 PM PDT by Normandy
You were the one who said to STUDY the details, were you not norm? One can earnestly study math, but prayer still doesn't change 2+2 into equaling 5. One of the two is wrong.
Smith told multiple, conflicting tales regarding his first vision norm, even his apostles didn't even tell the same story. The fundamental fact is norm - smith lied and if he lied about this - what else did he lie about norm?
Please convince me norm why smith would tell all these conflicting stories and for me to accept them some how as all true? NINE stories norm, NINE different versions that conflict with each other.
Let me leave you to compare the handwritten words of smith from his journal regarding his first vision
"… thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the situation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ …
marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath the wise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart …
I'll leave it to you to study it and see how it compares to the 'official' version.
Well did Moroni prophesy that Joseph Smith’s name would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.
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If “all nations, kindreds and tongues” already know Joey Smith’s name, why are you still sending out 50,000 mormon salesmen to spread the evil tidings about him ???
Since the time of Christ, Christianity developed into a religion of many strands and differing doctrines — certainly there has not been a single united body of Christ from the time of Jesus.
Them GOLD PLATES didn't seem to help much!!! |
FOUNDED BETWEEN 1830 AND 1844
NON-EXTANT MOVEMENTS FOUNDED 1844-1860
EXTANT MOVEMENTS
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James J. Strang, 1844
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Brigham Young, 1847
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, Alpheus Cutler, 1853
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 1851-1860
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, William Bickerton, 1862
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of Church of Christ (Temple Lot), Granville Hedrick, 1863
I recommend that people should compare what MORMONism 'reveals' to see if is DIFFERENT than what the BIBLE has alREADY revealed; because if MORMON scripture WAS from God, we should be noticing reinforcing doctrines; NOT completely new ones.
And completely MISSED the fact that the SUN would come up tomorrow!
Hi Godzilla,
I’m well aware of the differing accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision, I’ve read them and don’t really see why people make such a big deal about them being different.
For example, if someone were to ask me about how I was converted to Mormonism my accounts would vary depending on such things as whom I was speaking to, how well I knew them, how familiar they were with the scriptures, how much time I had, what their educational level was, how friendly my audience was, and so on. I would tell the truth, but depending on many variables I would not probably tell every detail of my story, and would emphasize some things.
It’s pretty natural to me that people’s accounts of their life experiences differ on different occasion. Also, it can sometimes be helpful to combine and synthesize different accounts to get a fuller picture of what happened.
Regards,
Normandy
if someone were to ask me about how I was converted to Mormonism my accounts would vary depending on such things as whom I was speaking to, how well I knew them, how familiar they were with the scriptures, how much time I had, what their educational level was, how friendly my audience was, and so on. I would tell the truth, but depending on many variables I would not probably tell every detail of my story, and would emphasize some things.
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Whats wrong with just telling everyone the truth of your conversion ???
One story told every time ???
Why make up a new lie every time ???
For instance, every time I tell about my born again experience, I say much the same things...
Most Christians i know say the same about their own experiences...
Why do mormons have such a hard time ???
Is it a Joey Smith vision syndrome or something ???
are you trying to impress for your own sake ???
Or give glory to god ???
(Make that the mormon god in your case )
if someone were to ask me about how I was converted to Mormonism my accounts would vary depending on such things as whom I was speaking to, how well I knew them, how familiar they were with the scriptures, how much time I had, what their educational level was, how friendly my audience was, and so on. I would tell the truth, but depending on many variables I would not probably tell every detail of my story, and would emphasize some things.
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HEY !!! Norm !!!
Just say this every time...
“I wuz deceived in mormonism...
Please help me find my way out...”
It’s a long story with lots of different episodes that would take too long to relate over if someone asked me in casual conversation “How did you become a Mormon?”
So I would summarize my experience according to whom I was speaking to.
It’s a long story with lots of different episodes that would take too long to relate over if someone asked me in casual conversation “How did you become a Mormon?”
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But I’m not asking in casual conversation...
I’m asking in this very serious religious thread...
“Partnering with our Friends from Other Faiths”
You’re a mormon, I’m from another faith, Christianity...
So get started kid with the first episode...
“How did you become a Mormon?”
Sigh, yes they are different norm - one has to ask the question - why are they different in fundamentally key area such as his age, location and perhaps most importantly who or what he is alleged to have seen.
For example, if someone were to ask me about how I was converted to Mormonism my accounts would vary depending on such things as whom I was speaking to, how well I knew them, how familiar they were with the scriptures, how much time I had, what their educational level was, how friendly my audience was, and so on.
For starters norm, would be tell them all what age you were at the time, or would your story vary plus/minus 3 years? Would you vary the location? Would you vary the reason for your search?
You see, in the example from smith's journal (1832) I cited earlier one has to answer your qualifiers- First he was writing in his journal, not to any specific group, he should have known himself, etc. Yet that rendition of his vision contradicts significant detail from the current 'official' account (1838) -
1832 - switch from smith the money digger (earlier accounts) to spiritual seeker
1832 - smith determined all religions were wrong, instead of being revealed by the visitor (1838)
1832 - he was 15 (1821), no revivals: 1838 he was 14 and there were revivals
1832 - the location is unclear 1838 it was in a grove
1832 - only Jesus appears in a 'vision' : 1838 - two personages Father and Son appear physically
Finally norm in the "official" account, it says smith saw God and knew God knew it, and therefore despite persecution, he dared not deny or change his story. Why did his story take so many changes norm, even to the point of not acknowledging seeing God as the 1832 and other versions clearly state.
Your qualifiers above are not applicable in this instance - he wasn't trying to smooth over things for opponents, his writings were for the 'faithful' etc. Further, when juxtaposed against his earlier testimonies the whole nature and character of this vision change. Fact is norm, why isn't the 1832 version the official one - it is closer to the event and should be more accurate than a later version written by a scribe. See norm, in just this one comparison, two different stories are being presented.
Now add the other components norm - his joining the methodist church - when expressly forbidden to, confusion in his apostles as to the context of the story, etc. So why the big deal? The gross contradictions show that smith was lying - and if he is lying about this foundational event, it is likely he is lying about other things too.
It’s pretty natural to me that people’s accounts of their life experiences differ on different occasion. Also, it can sometimes be helpful to combine and synthesize different accounts to get a fuller picture of what happened.
Fuller picture norm? Was smith 14, 15 or 17, in the woods or in a bedroom, who appears to him — a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son. Sorry norm, these accounts cannot by synthesized into anything that remotely makes any kind of sense.
Why make a big deal - your past prophet said it -
"Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. " ( Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Interview "The Mormons"; PBS Documentary, April 2007)
Your story raises other questions norm. For instance, according to the official account smith saw God the Father in the flesh with with a body (and should have died, according to D&C), yet in "Lectures on Faith" smith taught God was spirit without a 'tabernacle' like Jesus. Smith also taught that Jehovah was heavenly father - NOT Jesus.
It is not hard to see if one really wants to know the truth - how the first vision story quickly comes unraveled as well as smith's teachings. My testimony on when I was saved hasn't changed and doesn't when faced with different listeners - and that was 40+ years ago. I would think the restroration of the gospel would have made a better impression on smiths memory and given him the moxy to be consistent regardless of the audience.
Proverbs 11:2
So true, Elsie.
On this we agree. And Joseph Smith was/is that lair.
I know for me if God came to me personally I would remember every detail, every time. JS couldn’t even remember who came to him, different beings each time.
I hope you all have a delightful Sunday.
Let’s be thankful to God that we have the freedom to worship Him as we please. Sadly there are so many who are not as fortunate as we.
"It’s very important to know whether Joseph Smith’s visitations were from God, from the devil, or whether he just made up stories.
"I recommend that people should make this a matter of serious study and prayer, because if they were from God we should be paying attention to the things that were revealed.
No need to pray about Smith's teachings. They contradict the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
Starting with the single most important message God gave to Israel...
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד׃ וְאָהַבְתָּ אֵת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכָל־לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל־נַפְשְׁךָ וּבְכָל־מְאֹדֶךָ׃ וְהָיוּ הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיֹּום עַל־לְבָבֶךָ׃ וְשִׁנַּנְתָּם לְבָנֶיךָ וְדִבַּרְתָּ בָּם בְּשִׁבְתְּךָ בְּבֵיתֶךָ וּבְלֶכְתְּךָ בַדֶּרֶךְ וּבְשָׁכְבְּךָ וּבְקוּמֶךָ׃ וּקְשַׁרְתָּם לְאֹות עַל־יָדֶךָ וְהָיוּ לְטֹטָפֹת בֵּין עֵינֶיךָ׃ וּכְתַבְתָּם עַל־מְזוּזֹת בֵּיתֶךָ וּבִשְׁעָרֶיךָ׃
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