Posted on 08/13/2010 2:53:38 PM PDT by Quix
We discuss the Roman Catholic notion of TRANSSUBSTANTIATION a fair amount hereon.
As I was driving across the beautiful, majestic Dineh Rez yesterday, I listened to most of more than 75 hymns and praise songs in a particular CD collection I had with me.
I was pondering that issue a fair amount—particularly the rather intense Roman Catholic obsession with it. I recalled how my noting that I could IMAGINE that, GOD in His Grace and Mercy COULD allow the verse about ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO YOU . . . to operate in some spiritually powerful sense for some RC’s in the act of partaking of The Lord’s Supper.
It was curious to me that my posting such assertions were never responded to very well, if at all, by more than one RC, if that many.
Then I began to prayerfully ponder what that ‘special’ application of “ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO YOU” might be like, operate like, look like.
ALL OF A SUDDEN,
It was as though a clear Voice in my spirit said something to the effect that: “IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FAITH. IT HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT OBJECTS, NEVER.” My further sense was that GOD ALONE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ONLY “OBJECT” OF OUR AFFECTIONS THAT HE SUPPORTED.
Then some historic Scriptural examples came to mind. The forbidden fruit in The Garden was not about the fruit. It was about TRUSTING GOD—HAVING FAITH THAT GOD HAD ADAM AND EVE’S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART—THAT HE WOULD NOT WITHHOLD ANYTHING GOOD FROM THEM THAT WOULD BE TRULY GOOD FOR THEM. It was about TRUSTING GOD’S PROVISION AND CHARACTER ENOUGH to obey Him fully, in child-like faith and confidence in ABBA FATHER.
The altars of sacrifice that followed were not about the altars; nor even about the sacrifices. THEY WERE ABOUT TRUSTING GOD AND HIS INSTRUCTIONS ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT OBEDIENCE TO HIM WAS A SUPREMELY HIGH PRIORITY AND THAT GOD’S LOVE AND PROVISION WOULD SUFFICIENT—EVEN HIS PROVISION FOR SIN.
Noah’s Ark was not about the ark. It was about FAITH THAT GOD SPOKE TRUTH AND THAT GOD’S PROVISION WOULD BE SUFFICIENT. It was about FAITH IN GOD AND IN GOD’S WORD.
The blood on the doorposts in Egypt—as supremely vital and foreshadowing as that was . . . was not per se , about the blood. THAT TOO was about TRUSTING GOD AND TRUSTING GOD’S WORD AND THAT GOD’S PROVISION FOR SIN, FOR LIFE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
The brass serpent on the cross in the wilderness was not about serpents nor crosses. THAT TOO was about TRUSTING GOD AND TRUSTING GOD’S WORD that God’s provision FOR SIN AND FOR LIFE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
The Ark of The Covenant was NOT about a gold chest, angels & wings, golden hemorrhoids, Arron’s staff that budded nor the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments. It was about FAITH IN GOD, IN GOD’S LOVE AND IN GOD’S PROVISION.
Similarly, The Bread and The Wine are not about the Bread and The Wine—REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY TURN INTO SOMETHING MORE, OR NOT. They are about REMEMBERING GOD’S FAITHFULNESS AND PROVISION FOR SIN AND FOR ETERNAL LIFE—AND TO HAVE FAITH IN GOD’S ONGOING PROVISION FOR BOTH, DAY BY DAY.
I do NOT believe they turn into, what would by now, be massive tonnage of Christ’s body and blood. God has never had that kind of emphasis ON FLESH throughout Scripture. I don’t believe He suddenly shifted HIS EMPHASIS AND FOCUS in the middle of the stream.
Nevertheless, as a thought experiment, just pretend for a moment . . . that for some very strange and OUT OF BIBLICAL CHARACTER REASON, He did facilitate or allow that to happen.
EVEN THEN—WOULD THE BREAD AND THE WINE/LITERAL BODY AND BLOOD BE THE FOCUS?
NO WAY. GOD KNOWS US TOO WELL.
He knows we would quickly turn such elements and all the rituals around them into unmitigaged idolatrous nonsense AND REMOVE OUR FOCUS FROM THE (in Martin Buber’s terms) I-THOU RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EACH INDIVIDUAL AND THE FATHER—WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF CHRIST’S SACRIFICE TO BEGIN WITH.
Oh, I can hear all the wails about how “knowing” (fantasizing) that “TRANSUBSTANTIATION” is “REAL” causes individuals to focus more intensely and directly on THE FATHER.
I can conceive of that to a degree for some relatively few individuals.
I don’t believe it for a flash for most of the loudest pontificators hereon.
THE ACT, THE RITUALS, THE SUBSTANCES, THE OBJECTS ARE FARRRRRRRR TOOOOO PRECIOUS AS OBJECTS AND SUBSTANCES TO THEM. That’s Idolatry.
I realize that’s likely to be tricky for some to wrap their rigid, willfully blind noggins around. Maybe even for some not so willfully blind.
Consider . . . if one is focusing on a wafer and swallow of wine . . . even if one is convinced and pretending or being utterly convinced that the wafer and wine are literally Christ’s flesh and blood . . . where is the focus?
At least LARGELY, the focus is ON THE “FLESH AND BLOOD.” The focus is on a “GLORIFIED” SOMETHING held in one’s hands or mouth.
If anything, that’s a FOCUS ON THE RESIDUE OF A CRUEL CRUCIFIXION.
YET, let’s pretend a bit more preposterously. Let’s assume that we are talking about the one in a million RC’s who MIGHT for flashingly brief moments spring-board from the cruel tangibles in their mouth or hands to THE RISEN LORD in their focus. What then is the import of literal flesh and blood in their mouth or hands that any Proddy misses out on by reaching the SAME QUALITY OF FOCUS with the elements merely as symbolic items of remembrance?
Christ implemented, as far as I can think or discern, the Lord’s Supper as a REMEMBRANCE much as the Ark of the Covenant was—saying—HEY—FOLKS—WHEN YOU SEE THE ARK, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE ARK—REMEMBER GOD’S FAITHFULNESS AND PROVISION THROUGH FROM EGYPT TO JERICO AND BEYOND. HAVE FAITH IN GOD! STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH IN GOD!
Similarly, when we partake of the elements—FOCUS ON FAITH IN GOD—ON CHRIST’S PROVISION FOR SIN AND FOR ETERNAL LIFE—FOCUS IN ON HIM AND HIS VERY ONGOINGLY ACTIVE AND ETERNAL PROVISION.
The INGESTION of CHRIST IN US IS SPIRITUAL—TOTALLY SPIRITUAL—MUST BE TOTALLY SPIRITUAL FIRST AND FOREMOST. Yes, it influences our physical bodies as HE IS WHO HE IS IN US—THE RESURRECTED CHRIST.
The internally broken down elements are eliminated through normal bodily functions. NOT SO WITH THE RISEN CHRIST—HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US. AS WE FOCUS MORE ON HIM—THE RISEN LORD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS—HE GROWS WITHIN US IN TERMS OF HIS INFLUENCE, HIS CONTROL, HIS SATURATION OF ALL OUR BEING WITH HIMSELF AND HIS PROVISION FOR US.
God’s focus NEVER HAS BEEN the flesh—not the objects of the flesh, nor the deeds of the flesh. The flesh is a vehicle for our training as sons of God—primarily as children of God—spirits enlivened with God.
YES, HE WILL REDEEM AND RESURRECT OUR BODIES. It’s not as though He trashes our bodies. However, HE CERTAINLY DOES NOT exalt the flesh in any sense. And there’s not a shred of Scripture to suggest that HE WANTS US TO EXALT EXAMPLES OF FLESH—OBJECTS OF FLESH—EVEN OSTENSIBLY AS CHRIST’S OWN BODY AND BLOOD.
It has NEVER been about the objects. It HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FAITH IN GOD AND IN HIS LOVE AND PROVISION—HIS PROVISION FOR SIN, HIS PROVISION FOR ETERNAL LIFE.
WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP—IN OUR HEARTS, MINDS, SPIRITS . . . He takes care of our bodies sufficiently to achieve the that task through our life process, trek, dance.
God even trashed the ritual with the most sacred object in the HOLY OF HOLIES when He rent the Temple Curtain. What greater declaration could He have made about His attitude toward a focus on objects and rituals?
Either way, may God ever bless you!
LOLOL!
Indeed. Praise God!!!
LOLOL!
AM OFTEN humbled and blessed by YOUR encouragements.
HUG a penguin for me. LOL.
That reminds me of what we joked about at the usual Friday night dock parties. We invariably had many platters of chicken wings and everyone usually just threw the bones into the water (for the crabs). We said a thousands years from now if they dug up the site where the marina was they would think it had to be some kind of strange burial plot. Millions of small bones exactly the same kind and all from some extinct form of "gallus domesticus"! ;o)
NOPE.
QUITE DIFFERENT INDEED.
However, I’m not surprised that the DIFFERENCE escapes y’all.
Seems the Vatican folks incapacity to distinguish between
SAME VS DIFFERENT
is still with us.
Sheesh.
Please continue the idiotic posts about Dear Sister Aimee.
They characterize a LOT of what Proddys note with alarm about the Vatican camp.
Maybe some Proddy will try and help you see the obvious.
Maybe some Proddy will try and help you see the obvious.
I’d go with laughing. I think most of us suffer but few see that it’s a gift and a call.
Its' just particularly obtuse, mystifying, silly to rail about Dear Sister Aimee when none of the RC's most hated oponents are Foursquare, IIRC.
There also seems to be all this angst about the silly antics of some Pentecostals as a way to dig at me.
They seem to fail to understand that it goes with the territory. Pentecostals have been involved with silly antics from Acts 2 on when they were accused of being drunk on wine early in the day. Like OH YAWN! LOL.
And, Pentecostals--the more or less OPPOSITE OF a form of godliness denying the Power thereof--are certainly going to be majorly targeted of satan big time because he can't stand nor tolerate such Holy Spirit power very actively or the least bit purely operating against his kingdom. So he pollutes the individuals, tempts them into all manner of gross sin every chance he gets. Given human flaws, he gets lots of chances. GOD STILL GOES ON USING CRACKED POTS SO *HE* GETS ALL THE GLORY just as He always has.
Then there's this MAJOR chronic perceptual problem. They seem to fail to have significant insight about their own flaws TO THE EXTREME.It's like magic wafers and white hankys magically give the Emporer pure as the driven snow white clothes. !NO! !DOH!
Railing at Dear departed Sister Aimee while defending, winking at, rationalizing, dancing all around the many 100's of priests exercising with altar boys--and their hierarchical protectors and defenders--boggles my mind.
Yeah, Dear Sister Aimee and Dear Sister Kathryn Kuhlman were quite the shows. THANKFULLY, IT WAS FAR MORE THAN JUST A SHOW. GOD SHOWED UP. PEOPLE WERE HEALED BY THE THOUSANDS. PEOPLE WERE SAVED AND BROUGHT INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD BY THE 10'S OF THOUSANDS. People throwing rocks at that are throwing rocks at WHAT GOD DID. I don't recommend it.
And pretending they don't sin because of the magic wafer? Sheesh.
It's beginning to appear to me that all the furor about the magic wafer is not near as much about the unique exclusivist specialness about THE BODY OF CHRIST that just happens to be in Vatican agent hands--it's about THE VATICAN AGENT HANDS AND THEIR more or less EXCLUSIVE MONOPOLY ON A PURPORTEDLY ETERNALLY CRITICAL OBJECT UNDER THEIR CONTROL. THAT'S what gets the fur flying. !!!!CONTROL!!!! is a cardinal doctrine of the dogmatic 'faith.'
Then there's this terminal ?willful? blindness, ignorance about the DIFFERENCE between personal assault and attack on resident FREEPERS vs attack on beliefs, dogma, institutional idiocies etc. Are they REALLY that DENSE or 'just' Olympic Class thin-skinned and petulant? I hope it's 'merely' the latter.
I love the absurd ridiculousness of the Hale Bop idiot and the ET critters. IT JUST PROVES FOR THE 10 THOUSANDTH TIME HOW IGNORANT THEY ARE ABOUT ME *AND* ABOUT UFO'S! Anything that advertises their obtuseness, ignorance, meanness, spitefulness, vengeance, hostility, cluelessness, brittleness, terminal level Olympic Class pique, Petulance, thin-skinnedness so vividly it not that bad AT ALL! LOL.
Their 93% main mode of response is KILL THE MESSENGER! What cluelessness! It's like THE INQUISITION NEVER ENDS for them.
I think it's also funny . . . Dr E is so 99.99% careful about Scriptural fit and accuracy and rather precise language . . . and I diddly bop along flinging words and emotions right and left . . . so to get back at her, they engage in the easy, convenient task of assaulting me. That's a riot. I'm honored to serve the good Dr E in such a fashion! LOL.
Some very wise folks hereon have exhorted me that I'd do the Body of Christ more good to spend more time on the UFO issues and less on the head-against-granite-walls of the Vatican clueless. They may be right. I still, however, am of the opinion that the lurkers on the brink of leaving or joining the Vatican mess deserve some memorable, emotionally forceful presentations of the other perspectives.
I do need to finish the Fatima UFO incidents research volumes and wade through the tedius task of summarizing it all in a thread. Meanwhile, WWIII is rushing toward us.
Anyway--presently no screen name, smvoice et al . . . it's a great life if ya don't weaken! LOL.
It's such a blessing to have so many easy foils & jerks to play with on the other side! Not having to create hypothetical ones is a REAL time saver. LOL.
I am trying to reduce my RC go arounds to the more critical doctrinal idolatry/blasphemy and hypocrisy stuff. Will see how successful that effort is. It's just that with END TIMES events rushing faster and faster and closer and closer, there ARE some other raging priorities.
Welllllllll, see ya around the spit-ball/paint ball arena.
BTW, Roamer_1, why when I put "Navy" in for font color--it came out bright green. Had to put the hexdec in.
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