“We are disagreeing about facts”
We are disagreeing as to what the facts are. You say the fact is, the Roman Catholic Church is the only real church. I say it is not. We can’t both be right.
“Roman Catholic Church. . . is a Protestant invention.”
It most certainly is not!
You admit a person can be saved if they are not members of the Roman Catholic church. On this point, we agree.
“1) Presumption that you will be saved is not a good thing. “
Jesus told me to trust Him. Shall I refuse? He said if I believe and am baptized, I will be saved. Shall I deny His words?
“2) God sent the Church and you don’t have what it has unless you have the Church.”
God sent His Son. His Son set up the church. Some local bodies adhered better to His scriptural instructions than others. Obviously I think the Protestants do a better job; you think the Roman Catholics do a better job.
“You’re outside of the Church. Christ sent it. You’re outside of it.”
You, Vladimir, do not hold the keys of the kingdom. You have not looked into the Lamb’s Book of Life. You do not have the authority to declare me outside of the body of Christ. I have elders, duly ordained and appointed, who are responsible and accountable for my walk with Christ. You are not one of them. You therefore have no authority to declare this.
You wrote:
“We are disagreeing as to what the facts are.”
I know the facts. You are contesting them. We are not arguing as to what the facts might be. You are contesting that that facts are not factual. That is an entirely different matter. It is shown in what happened here:
I wrote: “Show me where I said anything about “Roman Catholic church” in this thread? The very term is a Protestant invention. I am not a Protestant and am not beholden to Protestant terminology, but to the truth.”
Notice I made several important points: 1) I never used the phrase “Roman Catholic Church”, 2) I pointed out the FACT that the term “Roman Catholic Church” is a Protestant invention – which it is, 3) I pointed out that I am not beholden to Protestant terminology, but only to the truth.
Now, how did you treat those three points? How did you related them? You posted this:
“Roman Catholic Church. . . is a Protestant invention.”
I said “term” and “terminology”. You dropped all of that. That is a kind of mendacity that is all too common among Protestant posters.
You then wrote, “It most certainly is not!”
Yeah, actually it is. Check the Oxford English Dictionary – the full set – and you’ll see that I am absolutely correct and your position is indefensible. Again, I have the facts and you are contesting them. We are not arguing over what might be factual. I already have the facts and you are denying them. It’s just that simple.
“You say the fact is, the Roman Catholic Church is the only real church. I say it is not. We can’t both be right.”
You are wrong on two counts: 1) I never said it was the only REAL church. Again, we see Protestant mendacity there in the invention of things that no one here claimed. Why stoop to that level? My words are plain enough. 2) If you are implying that I believe the Catholic Church is the only Church sent by God, that is most certainly true. Not only is it that we can’t both be right, but it is certain that only you can be wrong if you’re going to say things I never claimed.
“You admit a person can be saved if they are not members of the Roman Catholic church. On this point, we agree.”
Can be. One should never be presumptuous, however, and all of Protestantism is presumption.
“Jesus told me to trust Him. Shall I refuse?”
No, I think you should start trusting Him right away. One way to do that is to be faithful to the Church He sent rather than a sect created 1500 or 1900 years later.
“ He said if I believe and am baptized, I will be saved. Shall I deny His words?”
I think you already do deny His words. You’re a Protestant.
“God sent His Son. His Son set up the church.”
Is Christ not God? I said Christ sent the Church. Are you denying Christ is God?
“Some local bodies adhered better to His scriptural instructions than others. Obviously I think the Protestants do a better job; you think the Roman Catholics do a better job.”
The Catholic Church is the Church. Protestants have sects invented by men and fractured by men.
“You, Vladimir, do not hold the keys of the kingdom.”
No, I do not hold the keys. The pope does.
“You have not looked into the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
I do not have to look into the Book of Life to know a sect from 1520 or 2003 or anytime recently is merely a sect of men.
“You do not have the authority to declare me outside of the body of Christ.”
I need no authority to do so. You yourself have made it plain that you are not in the Church. I do not deny your feelings, but your feelings mean exactly squat when compared to reality. The reality is undeniable: you are in a sect and not the Church.
“ I have elders, duly ordained and appointed, who are responsible and accountable for my walk with Christ.”
They were not ordained or appointed by anyone sent by God or His Apostles. Tomorrow, if you wanted, you could set up a sect and call it the “Sect of What’s Happening Now” and start “duly” ordaining and appointing anyone you liked. There will be no difference in authority between your sect and the one you came from since neither one has any “duly” given authority from God or His Apostles.
“You are not one of them. You therefore have no authority to declare this.”
By all logic I must have as much authority as anyone in your sect since no one in your sect has authority! In reality, however, I have as much authority as anyone needs to admit that that which is false – any sect – is, in fact, false.