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To: Cronos
If Jesus is building the Church on Himself as Rock, why would he rename Peter "Rock", immediately change the subject, then turn back to Peter and give him the primary authority to govern the universal Church on Earth?

You have a complete misunderstanding of the discourse...Peter was singled out...Peter was not given any primacy...Peter was the 'rebel rouser' in the group of Apostles but he was still in the same boat as the others...He may have been more agressive but as we see in the scriptures, Peter had no more authority than any one else...

Secondly and very importantly, Peter and the rest of the Apostles were not given the keys to the church...Peter was given no authority to govern the church on earth...

They were given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, which is NOT the church...The Kingdom of Heaven is the literal, physical Kingdom where Jesus will sit on a Throne and rule with an iron rod...

Peter and the rest were commissioned to go to Jews to preach...NOT Gentiles...

Therefore, while Peter was a rock; he was a far smaller rock than Jesus but a rock just the same...

Peter would be the rock of the Apostles that were sent to minister to the Jews...The Jew were are still are a very special group of People to God...

The reason you guys don't get this is because you don't believe in the restoration of Israel...You falsely believe that you are the New Israel...

So Peter and the rest of the Apostle go out into the world, but are assigned to stay in Jerusalem until Jesus establishes His church...

Jesus then picks ANOTHER Apostle to start His Christian, Gentile church...Built on the huge rock, Jesus...Jesus chose the Apostle Paul...And Paul's message from Jesus is totally astounding...

Paul teaches the mystery of the beginning of the church, the Gospel of the Grace of God, the Kingdom of God which is God within you and it winds up with the Rapture of the church...The church is gone off the face of the earth...But is God done??? Absolutely not...And what of the original Apostles???

Peter was given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven...After the church leaves the face of the earth, the majority of the people (that are still alive) are still living on earth...What of them??? The church is gone...The Holy Spirit is gone...The Gospel of the Grace of God is gone...

Not only did Peter and the Apostles teach of this time period, God had it recorded as the scriptures so those folks still living after the church was gone, has scripture to guide them as well...

And that's where the Gospels, the book of James, Hebrews, the books of Peter and the later books of John come into play...These books will lead God's people after the church is gone...

Doesn't matter that you don't believe it...That's the way it is regardless of your belief...

3,058 posted on 07/28/2010 1:45:31 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

INDEED:


You have a complete misunderstanding of the discourse...Peter was singled out...Peter was not given any primacy...Peter was the ‘rebel rouser’ in the group of Apostles but he was still in the same boat as the others...He may have been more agressive but as we see in the scriptures, Peter had no more authority than any one else...

Secondly and very importantly, Peter and the rest of the Apostles were not given the keys to the church...Peter was given no authority to govern the church on earth...

They were given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, which is NOT the church...The Kingdom of Heaven is the literal, physical Kingdom where Jesus will sit on a Throne and rule with an iron rod...

Peter and the rest were commissioned to go to Jews to preach...NOT Gentiles...

Therefore, while Peter was a rock; he was a far smaller rock than Jesus but a rock just the same...

Peter would be the rock of the Apostles that were sent to minister to the Jews...The Jew were are still are a very special group of People to God...

The reason you guys don’t get this is because you don’t believe in the restoration of Israel...You falsely believe that you are the New Israel...

So Peter and the rest of the Apostle go out into the world, but are assigned to stay in Jerusalem until Jesus establishes His church...

Jesus then picks ANOTHER Apostle to start His Christian, Gentile church...Built on the huge rock, Jesus...Jesus chose the Apostle Paul...And Paul’s message from Jesus is totally astounding...

Paul teaches the mystery of the beginning of the church, the Gospel of the Grace of God, the Kingdom of God which is God within you and it winds up with the Rapture of the church...The church is gone off the face of the earth...But is God done??? Absolutely not...And what of the original Apostles???

Peter was given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven...After the church leaves the face of the earth, the majority of the people (that are still alive) are still living on earth...What of them??? The church is gone...The Holy Spirit is gone...The Gospel of the Grace of God is gone...

Not only did Peter and the Apostles teach of this time period, God had it recorded as the scriptures so those folks still living after the church was gone, has scripture to guide them as well...

And that’s where the Gospels, the book of James, Hebrews, the books of Peter and the later books of John come into play...These books will lead God’s people after the church is gone...

Doesn’t matter that you don’t believe it...That’s the way it is regardless of your belief...


3,067 posted on 07/28/2010 2:34:43 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Iscool; Cronos; Mad Dawg; Natural Law; Global2010; don-o; Campion; trisham

“Peter was not given any primacy”
“Peter had no more authority than any one else...”
“Peter was given no authority to govern the church on earth...”

____________________________________________________________________________
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus’ tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus’ teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus’ curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the “fisher of men.”

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter’s formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter’s death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the “barque of Peter”) is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus “more than these,” which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to “feed my lambs,” “tend my sheep,” “feed my sheep.” Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord’s ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn’t it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon’s quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the “whole Church” offered “earnest prayers” for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church’s first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter’s definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter’s definitive teaching. “Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited...”

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn’t want to build on “another man’s foundation” referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ’s Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by “exhorting” all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from “Babylon” which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that “Babylon” meant Rome. Rome was the “great city” of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus’ prediction of Peter’s death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul’s letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

Lots more on that page, including writings from the Church Fathers who firmly believed in Peter’s primacy and consistently taught it.


3,141 posted on 07/28/2010 6:45:34 PM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: Iscool; roamer_1
I asked you a simple question -- you said something completely, utterly wrong in post # 2761, where YOU said
Jesus never called Peter the rock...Jesus said, 'upon this rock'...
WRONG

then post #2900
Jesus said, 'You are Peter'...IF you must go with the Greek meaning, Peter means little rock...If the name Peter was meant to say rock, we wouldn't call Peter by the name of Peter...His name would be Rock...Or little Rock...Maybe Peter was part Indian...Maybe he was called Peter little rock...

WRONG AGAIN

because you completely forgot what Jesus said:
" 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven

. 18And I tell you that you are {Peter (English)/Petros (masculine noun for Rock in GREEK) / Kepha (Aramaic)} and on this {rock (English) / petra (feminine noun for rock in GREEK) / kepha (Aramaic) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e]

19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven."

20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ


Do you see the error of your sola scriptura when you have no idea of any language bar English and it's grammar?

Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures.

In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings.

"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble.

But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name

. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.


Is that clear enough -- you use two because of the grammatical structure in KOINE GREEK.


STOP trying to use English grammar to explain texts which were spoken in Aramaic and written in Koine Greek -- both the grammar systems differ from English.

If you spoke a language other than English or Spanish (which are both relatively simple grammatically), you would see that grammar can differ wildly across languages)

If you want to jump topics, we'll jump after you are clear in your understanding on Petra=Petros and that Jesus in your language did says "You are Rock and on this rock I shall.."
3,217 posted on 07/28/2010 11:47:06 PM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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