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To: Cronos

The point of my post was about state sanctioned religion.
When you have it and you are basically forced to pay to that religion it gives that religion power . The Roman Catholic Church was built on and gained it’s power this way.
(this is still going on in some south American countries and they are still persecuting Protestants too in areas which they controll)

It is not that I disagree that Spain had the right to expel muslims or fight them since they were invaders (invaders that also forced people to convert) But the state sanctioned Church also went after the Jews and forced them to convert or be killed (oh and they killed a lot of them after they converted also) The Jews btw have never forced their religion on anyone and they certainly did not in Spain either.

The Protestants are not free of this guilt either as the Lutherans basically did the same to the Anabaptist.


2,923 posted on 07/28/2010 7:11:28 AM PDT by Lera
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To: Lera
The Roman Catholic Church was built on and gained it’s power this way.

Actually, No. A cursory glance of history will show that your statement is incorrect. The Church post the fall of the Roman Empire had NO such power. From 303 AD until 430 AD, the concentration of power was in Byzantine and the Papacy had little say --> the major discussions were in the East, with the Pope chiming in and also involved in the Councils

From 430, the papacy had to fight for keeping civilisation alive in the midst of attacks and invasions by Vandals, Visigoths, Lombards, Burgundians, Franks, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Angles, Picts, etc. it had no power of this sort as the forces of power were Saxon or Arian (Visigoth).

Under the Carolingians it had control of spiritual matters but the initial kings were strong.

Despite these setbacks, the years from 430 to 900 saw a huge amount of proselytization led by The Church.

The "power" you claim was built on the Church spreading the Gospel, the Word of God to the pagans in the north, west and East.

You then agree that the State was right in converting Muslims?

Also, the state did not sanction the Church to go after the JEws -- have you READ the history of the reconquista????

The Jews were pushed out by secular authorities because the Sephardic Jews were generally sympathetic to the Moors (because the Moors had treated them generally well and had given them positions of power and also the Moors had flourishing trade while the Catholics were poor knights)

The Jews were exiled by the Spanish Kings, not the Church and they mostly went to another Catholic country -- the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania.... moving from one CAtholic country to another kind of tells you that this was a political move, right?

Finally, your statement atht
"The Jews btw have never forced their religion on anyone"
is false -- under the Maccabees (aha -- now you see the reason for Maccabees 1 and 2), they conquered the Edomites (Idumeans) and forcibly converted them. These Idumeans later came to power in the form of Herod the Great's family. Incidently the Idumeans were also among those defending the city of Jerusalem from the Romans in 69AD, so it's kind of ironic that the descendents of Esau, the Edomites would be destroyed in the defense of Jerusalem.

Also, in Yemen, Around 517/8, a Jewish king called Yusuf Asar Yathar (also known as Dhu Nuwas) usurped the kingship of Himyar from Ma`adkarib Ya`fur Upon gaining power, Yusuf attacked the Aksumite garrison in Zafar, the Himyarite capital, killing many and destroying the church there. The Christian King Kaleb of Axum learned of Dhu Nuwas's persecutions of Christians and Aksumites, and, according to Procopius, was further encouraged by his ally and fellow Christian Justin I of Byzantium, who requested Aksum's help to cut off silk supplies as part of his economic war against the Persians.
2,926 posted on 07/28/2010 7:32:03 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Lera
Well, I take it you are a Baptist, hence the bit about Anabaptists.

Both Lutherans in Germany and Anglicans in England (both 1 Generation Protestant groups) persecuted the Anabaptists (2nd generation grouping). Then the Anabaptists birthed the Baptists under John Smyth around 1607 (3rd generation protestant grouping), and they split (not sure, but there was minor persecuting by Baptists on Anabaptists). Of course, most Baptists came to the US and stayed on until they split over slavery to form the SBC and the other Baptists groups. In the meanwhile the Anabaptists came to the US and their descendents are now the Congregationalists.
2,928 posted on 07/28/2010 7:35:21 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Lera
as the Lutherans basically did the same to the Anabaptist.

Really, how many Anabaptists did Lutheran clergy slay? Oh that's right, it was the STATE. Go back to your ravings.

3,157 posted on 07/28/2010 7:57:16 PM PDT by xone
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