Testimony of a Former Irish Priest

BereanBeacon.Org ^ | Richard Peter Bennett

[boatbums]

So that leaves you free to rape, murder, commit arson and KNOW that you are saved?

Not that same, old, tired and stale argument again!!! Somehow someone always manages to throw that out in the mix. LOL!!! Next we'll hear, "You have a 'cheap grace' or 'easy believism'."

[Cvengr]

My favorite verse is John 3:17.

It doesn’t begin with, “except...”.

[Cvengr]

Can you lose your salvation?

Define the meaning of salvation you use in the question.

[the_conscience]

“but I’m also sure you will be accused of equating type of govt with salvation somewhere on this thread.”

Dang! 17 post and less than 1 hour later your prophecy comes true! A prophet in our time!

And the response of the ruling class only reinforces the point!

[Cvengr]

An outstanding point.

It might also be pointed out that no human being is condemned to the Lake of Fire for their personal sins. All human beings, except for Jesus Christ Himself, were condemned prior to ever having any salvation.

Just as all personal sins were imputed to Christ on the Cross and judged once and for all, likewise, we aren’t saved by anything we’ve have done, but only but us having the same faith in Him as Christ on the Cross did in the Father, at which time He imputes righteousness onto believers.

At the moment of faith in Christ, we are facing Him, though faith in Christ, confessing our sins to Him, and because of the redemption of our sins, He is free by grace to regenerate our human spirit. The believer then is saved with eternal life.

The issue upon saving faith is forgiveness by God.

Just because we sin after salvation, doesn’t mean we have lost eternal life, rather we have stepped out of fellowship with Him, and until we return to Him, and confess those post salvation sins, i.e. allow Him to wash our feet partially, we remain out of fellowship. Upon our being partially cleansed, he forgives postsalvation sins and we are back in fellowship with Him, ready for His continuing sanctification process.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All of the above are my own thoughts, as I have been taught and come to believe. I ask correction where I may have clumsily represented the ancient faith.

We are not Jews. We do not seek a materialistic savior today. Jesus Christ was born, accomplished the task of saving His flock which God had given Him from the foundation of the world, and He departed to heaven where He now sits on the right hand of the Father.

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 2:9-16

So Scripture tells us that believers have been given "the mind of Christ."

Is that mind of Christ in some mason jar covered in formaldehyde?

No, it is with us spiritually. Mercifully, the minds of the redeemed have been "renewed" by the Holy Spirit in order to "know the things of God" because men were created as conceptual beings. We're supposed to learn through words and concepts and ideas. And if God has given us ears to hear and the Holy Spirit to lead us in all understanding, those words, concepts and ideas will penetrate our hearts and turn our minds from sin to God.

That's what Scripture teaches us.

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:37

[Mad Dawg]

How would like to present God with a bill for your works, with payment from Him being your salvation?

Well, there is one way, which every parent knows.

My kid asks me for money. Then she asks me to drive her into Charlottesville. Then I have to stay in the car while she goes into the Hallmark store.

Then, a couple of days later I am happy to thank her for my birthday card.

I REALLY thank her, I am truly delighted. Even though I did 99.44% of the work.

I am, that is, happy to GIVE her a claim on me. It's a real claim, but I gave it to her.

[RobbyS]

The command is more than that he says” Take and eat: this is my body etc. Why think he does not mean what he says? And why not celebrate this every Sunday?

[Cronos]

you are mixing up justification and redemption. We are justified by Christ's one time sacrifice. Christ's death and resurrection (triumph over satan and death) provides justification for believers before God. His righteousness becomes theirs, and his death becomes an offering to God in their place, to pay for all of their sins. Thus justification is by faith alone - not through good deeds - and is a gift from God through Christ.

You are SAVED in Christ, but you are being redeemed through Christ's actions in your life. All of this is done by God alone through you, you just have to accept.

From the "Joint declaration on the Doctrine of Justification"

section 4.7 no. 38-39, "when Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace,"

refer James 2: 15 to 24

Justification is grounded in Christ’s work alone, and is instrumentally received by faith alone. That makes good sense and guards us from thinking that faith itself is somehow meritorious. All the saving power is found in Christ himself, not at all in us. We do not achieve salvation, we receive it.

Paul says we are justified by faith. But James says we are justified by works together with faith. James uses the same preposition for works that Paul uses for faith. He does more than simply qualify the kind of faith that justifies (though he does do that!). He says that works, along with faith, have justifying value. Thus, in some way works are instrumental in justification as well as faith

Faith justifies us yet works seem to be instrumental in our saving process (James). The final declaration God passes over us at the last day will be in accordance with the pattern of life we have lived. There will be congruence between the life we have lived and the final verdict we receive. Those who have lived lives of faith — meaning lives characterized at their core by loyalty to God — will be justified. Those who have lived in unbelief will be condemned. The good works believers have done will not merit final justification, but they will be instrumental in that there will be basic match between the verdict rendered and the life lived

Calvin's thoughts reflect those of the Antinomians against whom James, John, Peter and Jude wrote. St. James had no other object than to emphasize the fact — already emphasized by St. Paul — that only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides formata) possesses any power to justify man (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13:2), whilst faith devoid of charity and good works (fides informis) is a dead faith and in the eyes of God insufficient for justification as in James 2:17

St. James insists on the necessity of works of Christian charity, while St. Paul intends to show that neither the observance of the Jewish Law nor the merely natural good works of the pagans are of any value for obtaining the grace of justification

This is because St. Paul is writing to ex-Gentiles who did not observe the law, while St. James writes to those who know and presumably follow the law. BOTH these thoughts and words and correct and do NOT contradict each other

The confusion arises when we take one in isolation say St. Paul and do not realise that his epistles are of that period in time and directed TO gentiles.

Whether Victorinus, a neo-Platonist, already defended the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is immaterial to our discussion. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that in the Middle Ages there were a few Catholic theologians among the Nominalists (Occam, Durandus, Gabriel Biel), who went so far in exaggerating the value of good works in the matter of justification that the efficiency and dignity of Divine grace was unduly relegated to the background. Of late, Fathers Denifle and Weiss have shown that Martin Luther was acquainted almost exclusively with the theology of these Nominalists, which he naturally and justly found repugnant, and that the "Summa" of St. Thomas and the works of other great theologians were practically unknown to him. Even Ritschl ("Christliche Lehre von der Rechfertigung und Versohnung", I, 3rd ed., Bonn, 1889, pp. 105, 117) admits that neither the Church in her official teaching nor the majority of her theologians ever sanctioned, much less adopted, the extreme views of the Nominalists. Nevertheless it was not a healthy reaction against Nominalism, but Luther's own state of conscience that caused his change of views. Frightened, tormented, worn out by constant reflexions on his own sinfulness, he had finally found, even before 1517, relief and consolation only in the thought that man cannot overcome concupiscence, and that sin itself is a necessity. This thought naturally led him to a consideration of the fall of man and its consequences. Original sin has so completely destroyed our likeness to God and our moral faculties in the natural order, that our will has lost its freedom regarding works morally good or bad, and we are consequently condemned to commit sin in every action. Even what we consider good works are nothing but sin. Since, according to Luther, concupiscence, of which death alone shall free us, constitutes the essence of original sin, all our actions are corrupted by it. Concupiscence as an intrinsically evil disposition, has instilled its deadly poison into the soul, its faculties, and its action (cf. Möhler, "Symbolik", sec. 6). But here we are forced to ask: If all our moral actions be the outcome of an internal necessity and constraint, how can Luther still speak of sin in the true meaning of the word? Does not original sin become identical with the "Evil Substance" of the Manichæans, as later on Luther's follower, Flacius Illyricus, quite logically admitted?

Since justification as an application of the Redemption to the individual presupposes the fall of the entire human race, the Council of Trent quite logically begins with the fundamental statement that original sin has weakened and deflected, but not entirely destroyed or extinguished the freedom of the human will (Trent, sess. VI, cap. i: "Liberum arbitrium minime extinctum, viribus licet attenuatum et inclinatum"). Nevertheless, as the children of Adam were really corrupted by original sin, they could not of themselves arise from their fall nor shake off the bonds of sin, death, and Satan. Neither the natural faculties left in man, nor the observance of the Jewish Law could achieve this. Since God alone was able to free us from this great misery, He sent in His infinite love His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, Who by His bitter passion and death on the cross redeemed fallen man and thus became the Mediator between God and man. But if the grace of Redemption merited by Christ is to be appropriated by the individual, he must be "regenerated by God", that is he must be justified. What then is meant by justification? Justification denotes that change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer (l.c., cap.iv: "Justificatio impii. . . translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adae, in statum gratiae et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam, Jesum Christum, Salvatorem nostrum"). In the New Law this justification cannot, according to Christ's precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water. While in Baptism infants are forthwith cleansed of the stain of original sin without any preparation on their part, the adult must pass through a moral preparation, which consists essentially in turning from sin and towards God. This entire process receives its first impulse from the supernatural grace of vocation (absolutely independent of man's merits), and requires an intrinsic union of the Divine and human action, of grace and moral freedom of election, in such a manner, however, that the will can resist, and with full liberty reject the influence of grace (Trent, l.c., can.iv: "If any one should say that free will, moved and set in action by God, cannot cooperate by assenting to God's call, nor dissent if it wish. . . let him be anathema"). By this decree the Council not only condemned the Protestant view that the will in the reception of grace remains merely passive, but also forestalled the Jansenistic heresy regarding the impossibility of resisting actual grace. With what little right heretics in defence of their doctrine appeal to St. Augustine, may be seen from the following brief extract from his writings: "He who made you without your doing does not without your action justify you. Without your knowing He made you, with your willing He justifies you, but it is He who justifies, that the justice be not your own" (Serm. clxix, c. xi, n.13).

the different states in the process of justification. The Council of Trent assigns the first and most important place to faith, which is styled "the beginning, foundation and root of all justification" (Trent, l.c., cap.viii). Cardinal Pallavicini* (Hist. Conc. Trid., VIII, iv, 18) tells us that all the bishops present at the council fully realized how important it was to explain St. Paul's saying that man is justified through faith. Comparing Bible and Tradition they could not experience any serious difficulty in showing that fiduciary faith was an absolutely new invention and that the faith of justification was identical with a firm belief in the truths and promises of Divine revelation (l. c.: "illumque [Deum] tanquam omnis justitiae fontem diligere incipiunt"). The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism of water, inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God. The same process of justification is repeated in those who by mortal sin have lost their baptismal innocence; with this modification, however, that the Sacrament of Penance replaces baptism. Considering merely the psychological analysis of the conversion of sinners, as given by the council, it is at once evident that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man (Trent, l. c., can. xii: "Si quis dixerit, fidem justificantem nihil aliud esse quam fiduciam divinae misericordiae, peccata remittentis propter Christum, vel eam fiduciam solam esse, qua justificamur, a.s."). Since our Divine adoption and friendship with God is based on perfect love of God or charity (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13; James 2:17 sqq.), dead faith devoid of charity (fides informis) cannot possess any justifying power. Only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man, and this even before the actual reception of baptism or penance, although not without a desire of the sacrament (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. iv, xiv). But, not to close the gates of heaven against pagans and those non-Catholics, who without their fault do not know or do not recognize the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Catholic theologians unanimously hold that the desire to receive these sacraments is implicitly contained in the serious resolve to do all that God has commanded, even if His holy will should not become known in every detail.

The two elements of active justification, forgiveness of sin and sanctification, furnish at the same time the elements of habitual justification, freedom from sin and holiness. According to the Catholic doctrine, however, this freedom from sin and this sanctity are effected, not by two distinct and successive Divine acts, but by a single act of God. For, just as light dispels darkness, so the infusion of sanctifying grace eo ipso dispels from the soul original and mortal sin. (Cf. Trent, sess. VI, can. xi: "Si quis dixerit, homines justificari vel sola imputatione justitiae Christi, vel sola peccatorum remissione, exclusa gratia et caritate, quae in cordibus eorum per Spiritum Sanctum diffundatur atque illis inhaereat. . ., a.s.") In considering the effects of justification it will be useful to compare the Catholic doctrine of real forgiveness of sin with the Protestant theory that sin is merely "covered" and not imputed. By declaring the grace of justification, or sanctifying grace, to be the only formal cause of justification, the Council of Trent intended to emphasize the fact that in possessing sanctifying grace we possess the whole essence of the state of justification with all its formal effects; that is, we possess freedom from sin and sanctity, and indeed freedom from sin by means of sanctity. Such a remission of sin could not consist in a mere covering or non-imputation of sins, which continue their existence out of view; it must necessarily consist in the real obliteration and annihilation of the guilt. This Biblical concept of justification forms an essential element of Catholicism.

[Judith Anne]

Thank you for your consideration.

[OpusatFR]

“No, I do not believe that you can “LOSE” your salvation.”

Not even if you lie, cheat and steal?

The problem is this:

You are taking “believe and be saved” and throwing out the Cross of Christ.

There is a concreteness in the Sola Scriptura that reduces salvation to a formula that in turn reduces Christ’s message to a mere set of directions that will eventually carry the unwary slowly out of the light and with increasing speed cast them into darkness.

[OpusatFR]

“When Christ died for you sins, how many of them were future?”

Are you telling us that because Christ died on the cross one time, that anything you do in the future from the point you “believe and be saved” is of no consequence to your soul?

[OpusatFR]

Thank you for that clarity on Justification and Redemption.

The idea of Salvation the non-Catholics present is so alien and nonsensical and reduces the Scripture to some simplistic formula it is mindbending.

The LITERALNESS and CONCRETENESS leaves no room for FAITH.

[OpusatFR]

“... two positions...”

Dream on. There are splinter sects upon splinter sects.
Don’t expect us to keep up with the deviations from your own theologies.

[Cvengr]

"...but you are being redeemed through Christ's actions in your life..."Redemption is towards sin. At what point in time were our personal sins redeemed?

This is not a present tense action, it is a past tense action, having been completed, with forever more accomplishment. It Is Finished!

[don-o]

Is that mind of Christ in some mason jar covered in formaldehyde?

That question raises one about the cerebral cortex inside the skull of the Man, Jesus Christ. When He ascended to the Father the two "men" in white told the lookers on that the "same Jesus" would return in like manner.

In Luke 24:39 Jesus invites the Apostles to "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Then he ate food with them.

His flesh was of a different kind than before, since he could pass through walls; but He confirms in the verse that He is not a spirit.

He has retained, in a glorified form, the flesh that He took from the Theotokos. And the implication I draw from that is that matter matters. God does not despise his creation. In fact, He shows us that it is being redeemed from its bondage to corruption.

I am not disputing the scriptures cited as to the natural and spiritual mind. I am saying that a complete rejection of the physical is not Christianity. And I am not saying that Dr E does reject it. I'm not sure about that.

Her post just prompted my thought about the Incarnation and what are the implications.

[Cvengr]

"The LITERALNESS and CONCRETENESS leaves no room for FAITH."

This aspect of a doctrine presented immediately proves it to be antiChristian.

[Cvengr]

Are you telling us that because Christ died on the cross one time, that anything you do in the future from the point you “believe and be saved” is of no consequence to your soul?

2 different issues are being discussed in this question.

Forgiveness is not the same as Redemption.

Forgiveness occurs based upon a righteous and just judgment.

The Cross was all JUDGMENT, not Forgiveness.

Just as Adam sinned once, resulting in condemnation of all, Christ's work on the Cross, resulted in one Judgment, providing the Redemption for all.

That is why in a moment, one can have faith alone in Christ alone and be saved by Him immediately.

After that initial salvation, is it possible to sin again? Sure, we are all sinners and all carry a scarred soul, an old man, an old sin nature, which we find repetitively rears his ugly head and pulls us out of fellowship with Him, grieving the Holy Spirit when we sin.

Post salvation sin scars our soul, so by all means it is being communicated in Scripture that there are consequences to sin after salvation.

Nobody is getting away with anything by sinning after salvation, we simply place ourselves in the wrong place at the wrong time to perform as He has intended for us in His Plan. We simply fail to perform so as to run the race the best we can, and leave an inheritance reward on the shelf which He had predestined from eternity past in heaven to award us eternally.

[OpusatFR]

We are saved by Grace, but not faith alone.

What you call “works” are the visable sign of Christ’s Church on earth, the Catholic Church.

Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans (John 14:18) but would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect us (John 15:26). He gave the sacraments to heal, feed, and strengthen us. The seven sacraments —baptism, the Eucharist, penance (also called reconciliation or confession), confirmation, holy orders, matrimony, and the anointing of the sick—are not just symbols. They are signs that actually convey God’s grace and love.

The sacraments were foreshadowed in the Old Testament by things that did not actually convey grace but merely symbolized it (circumcision, for example, prefigured baptism, and the Passover meal prefigured the Eucharist. When Christ came, he did not do away with symbols of God’s grace. He supernaturalized them, energizing them with grace. He made them more than symbols.

God constantly uses material things to show his love and power. After all, matter is not evil. When he created the physical universe, everything God created was “very good” (Gen. 1:31). He takes such delight in matter that he even dignified it through his own Incarnation (John 1:14).

During his earthly ministry Jesus healed, fed, and strengthened people through humble elements such as mud, water, bread, oil, and wine. He could have performed his miracles directly, but he preferred to use material things to bestow his grace.

In his first public miracle Jesus turned water into wine, at the request of his mother, Mary (John 2:1–11). He healed a blind man by rubbing mud on his eyes (John 9:1–7). He multiplied a few loaves and fish into a meal for thousands (John 6:5–13). He changed bread and wine into his own body and blood (Matt. 26:26– 28). Through the sacraments he continues to heal, feed, and strengthen us.

[OpusatFR]

“In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Testimony of a Former Irish Priest, Cvengr wrote:
“The LITERALNESS and CONCRETENESS leaves no room for FAITH.”

This aspect of a doctrine presented immediately proves it to be antiChristian.

Not at all. The difference is that while I believe in the Grace given, y’all presume that it is impossible to lose it whatever one does.

That’s not faith, that’s presumption.