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On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)
Various | Various | Various

Posted on 07/06/2010 6:54:33 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

From Abandonment to Divine Providence

Letter XI.—Intemperate Zeal.

To the same person. On intemperate and indiscreet zeal.


I see, my dear Sister, that a mistaken zeal exposes you to dangers all the more serious because they are hidden under the most insidious appearances. Desire for the perfection of our neighbour is, doubtless, very good; the pain that is felt interiorly 202at the sight of his defects is good also, provided it proceeds from a pure desire for his perfection, But with all this there must needs be mingled much secret self-complacency, confidence in one’s own superior light, and severity towards one’s neighbour. Zeal such as this cannot, you must well understand, come from God; it is an illusion of the devil, hurtful to yourself and to others. However, the evil can be easily cured provided you are sincere enough, and submissive enough to recognise the gravity of it, and to apply the remedy. That which I am about to offer you has already produced a very happy result in a soul which was subject to the same illusion. Let us hope it will not be less efficacious in your case.

I advise you, therefore, and command you in the most sacred name of Jesus Christ, and that of His divine Mother, never more to think of practising the virtue of zeal as long as this prohibition is not expressly removed. I exculpate you before God absolutely, and I take upon myself the responsibility of all the ill consequences that may result from this prohibition. If you should get scruples about it, and the devil should put in your mind that you could do some good or avert some evil, say to God, “My God, although charity is the queen of virtues, I may not practise this zeal until You have made me able to do so without detriment to the charity I owe to others and to myself. When I am found to be sufficiently strong, or rather sufficiently humble, to exercise zeal without disturbing the peace of my soul, and with all possible sweetness, compassion, and thoughtfulness for my neighbour, and a helpfulness, kindness and charity which nothing can embitter, a charity which is scandalised at nothing but its own shortcomings; with all that patience and long-suffering which enables one tranquilly to endure the defects of others, and for as long as You will suffer them, Oh, my God; and when I am neither troubled, nor uneasy, nor astonished that others are incorrigible, then this prohibition will be removed, and I shall be able to think that I can glorify You in my neighbour. But until then, Oh, my God, I must exercise my zeal on myself, in the correction of my numerous defects.”

In fact, my very dear Sister, when humility has dug that deep foundation indispensable to every virtue, I shall be the first to urge you to resume the practice of zeal; until then think only of yourself. Remember that God, to punish those who have practised this indiscreet zeal, and to correct them, has often allowed them to fall into much graver faults than those which has scandalised them in others.

In the second place I command you never to speak of God, or of anything good, unless in a spirit of humility and meekness, in an amiable and gracious manner, with moderation and 203encouragement, and never with bitterness and severity, or in a way to wound and repel those who hear you, because, although you may only say what is in the Gospel and in the best books, I believe that in your present state of mind you might say it very badly and in such a way as only to do harm. Did not Satan make use of the words of Holy Scripture to tempt our Lord? Truth is the proper relation of things. It is changed when pushed to extremes, or wrongly applied. Your peevish temper is like a smoked glass, which, if you do not take care will prevent you seeing things in their true light, or showing them to others. Keep always on your guard against this fatal influence, and feed your mind on thoughts and feelings that are contrary to those inspired by temper. Entertain yourself and others with conversations on the infinite goodness of God, and on the confidence we ought to have in Him. Compel yourself to offer an example in your whole conduct, of a virtue that has no bounds, and which imposes no restraint on others. If you have nothing kind to say keep silent, and leave the care of deciding to others. They can avoid better than you too much laxness, and will be exact without being severe. If exactitude be praiseworthy, severity is blamable, it does nothing but revolt people instead of convincing them, and embitter their souls instead of gaining them. As much as true meekness, with the help of God, has power to repel evil and to win to good, so much has an excessive harshness power to make goodness difficult and evil incurable. The first is edifying, the latter, destructive.

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“Our Lord wants us to serve him with common sense, and the opposite is called indiscreet zeal.” Coste, Vol. 1, Letter 85. – St. Vincent de Paul To Saint Louise, 12 October 1631, p. 128.

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The Interior Castle, by St. Teresa of Avila:

CHAPTER II.

18. Do not trouble yourselves, my daughters, with cares which do not concern you. You must notice that the struggle with the demons continues through nearly all the mansions of this castle. True, in some of them, the guards, which, as I explained, are the powers of the soul, have strength for the combat, but we must be keenly on the watch against the devils's arts, lest he deceive us in the form of an angel of light. He creeps in gradually, in numberless ways, and does us much harm, though we do not discover it until too late.

19. As I said elsewhere, he works like a file, secretly and silently wearing its way: I will give you some examples to show how he begins his wiles. For instance: a nun has such a longing for penance as to feel no peace unless she is tormenting herself in some way. This is good in itself; but suppose that the Prioress has forbidden her to practise any mortifications without special leave, and the sister thinking that, in such a meritorious cause, she may venture to disobey, secretly leads such a life that she loses her health and cannot even fulfil the requirements of her rule--you see how this show of good ends. Another nun is very zealous about religious perfection; this is very right, but may cause her to think every small fault she sees in her sisters a serious crime, and to watch constantly whether they do anything wrong, that she may run to the Prioress to accuse them of it. At the same time, may be she never notices her own shortcomings because of her great zeal about other people's religious observance, while perhaps her sisters, not seeing her intention but only knowing of the watch she keeps on them, do not take her behaviour in good part.

20. The devil's chief aim here is to cool the charity and lessen the mutual affection of the nuns, which would injure them seriously. Be sure, my daughters, that true perfection consists in the love of God and our neighbour, and the better we keep both these commandments, the more perfect we shall be. The sole object of our Rule and Constitutions is to help us to observe these two laws.

21. Indiscreet zeal about others must not be indulged in; it may do us much harm; let each one look to herself. How ever, as I have spoken fully on this subject elsewhere, I will not enlarge on it here, and will only beg you to remember the necessity of this mutual affection. Our souls may lose their peace and even disturb other people's if we are always criticizing trivial actions which often are not real defects at all, but we construe them wrongly through ignorance of their motives. See how much it costs to attain perfection! Sometimes the devil tempts nuns in this way about the Prioress, which is still more dangerous. Great prudence is then required, for if she disobeys the Rule or Constitutions the matter must not always be overlooked, but should be mentioned to her; if, after this, she does not amend, the Superior of the Order should be informed of it. It is true charity to speak in this case, as it would be if we saw our sisters commit a grave fault; to keep silence for fear that speech would be a temptation against charity, would be that very temptation itself.

22. However, I must warn you seriously not to talk to each other about such things, lest the devil deceive you. He would gain greatly by your doing so, because it would lead to the habit of detraction; rather, as I said, state the matter to those whose duty it is to remedy it. Thank God our custom here of keeping almost perpetual silence gives little opportunity for such conversations, still, it is well to stand ever on our guard.

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The Spiritual Combat - by Father Dom Lorenzo Scupoli

CHAPTER XLII

How to resist the devil when he seeks to delude us by means of indiscreet zeal

When our cunning adversary perceives that we are walking right onward in the path of holiness with fervent yet well-regulated desires, being unable to draw us aside by open allurements, he transforms himself into an angel of light; and by suggestions of seeming friendship, sentences from Scripture, and examples of saints, importunately urges us to aspire indiscreetly to the height of perfection, that so he may cause us to fall headlong from thence. To this end he encourages us to chastise the body with great severity, by fasts, disciplines, hair-shirts, and other similar mortifications, that he may either tempt us to pride by the thought that we are doing great things, which is a temptation that especially besets women, or that we may fall sick, and so be disabled from the exercise of good works; or else that from pain and over-weariness we may take a disgust and abhorrence to spiritual exercises, and thus by degrees grow cold in the way of godliness, and at last give ourselves up with greater avidity than before to worldly pleasures and amusements. This has been the end of many, who, following presumptuously the impulse of an indiscreet zeal, have in their excessive outward austerities gone beyond the measure of their interior virtue; and so have perish ed in their own inventions, and become the sport of malicious fiends. This would not have befallen them had they well considered what we have been saying, and remembered that these acts of painful self-discipline, praiseworthy as they are and profitable to such as have corresponding strength of body and humility of spirit, must yet be proportioned to each man's state and condition.

And those who are unequal to labor with the saints in similar austerities, may find other opportunities of imitating their lives by strong and effectual desires and fervent prayers, aspiring after the most glorious crown of Christ's true soldier by despising the whole world and themselves also; by giving themselves up to solitude and silence; by meekness and humility towards all men; by patience under wrongs; by doing good to those most opposed to them; and by avoiding every fault, however trivial it may be; things far more acceptable to God than painful bodily exercises. With regard to these, I would have you to be rather discreetly sparing, in order to be able, if necessary, to increase them, than by certain excesses of zeal to run the risk of having to relinquish them altogether. I say this to you, being well assured you are not likely to fall into the error of those who, though they pass for spiritual, are enticed and deluded by deceitful nature into an over-anxious care for the preservation of their bodily health. So jealous are they, and fearful of the slightest thing which might affect it, that they live in constant doubt and fear of losing it. There is nothing of which they better love to think and speak than of the ordering of their lives in this respect. Hence they are ever solicitous to have food suited rather to their palate than their stoma ch, which is often weakened by over-delicacy. And though all this is done on the pretext of gaining strength the better to serve God, it is in fact but a vain attempt to conciliate two mortal enemies, the spirit and the flesh; an attempt which injures both instead of benefiting either; for this same over-carefulness impairs the health of the one and the devotion of the other.

A certain degree of freedom in our way of life is therefore safer and more profitable; accompanied, however, by the discretion of which I have spoken, having regard to different constitutions and states of life, which cannot all be brought under the same rule.

In the pursuit of interior holiness, as well as of exterior devotion, we should proceed with moderation, as has been shown before on the subject of the gradual acquisition of virtues.

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The Spiritual Guide, Which leads the Soul to the fruition of Internal Peace. The Second Book. by Miguel de Molinos

CHAP. III.

The Indiscreet Zeal of Souls, and the disordinate Love of our Neighbour, disturb internal Peace.

13. There is not a more acceptable Sacrifice to God (says St. Gregory, In Ezechiel,1 Hom.12) than the ardent Zeal of Soul: For that Ministry, the Eternal God sent his own Jesus Christ into the World, and ever since it hath been the most noble and sublime of Offices. But if the Zeal be indiscreet, it brings a notable obstacle to the progress of the Spirit.

14. No sooner does thou find in thy self any new and fervent light, but thou would’st lay thy self wholly out for the good of Souls; and in the mean time, its odds, but that that is self-love, which thou takest to be pure zeal. This uses sometime to put on a garb of a disordinate Desire, of a vain complacency, of an industrious affection and proper esteem; all Enemies to the peace of the Soul.

15. It is never good to love thy Neighbour to the detriment of thine own spiritual good. To please God in purity, ought to be the only scope of thy Works; this ought to be thy only desire and thought; endeavouring to moderate thy disordinate fervour; that tranquillity and internal peace may reign in thy Soul. The true zeal of Souls, which thou oughtest to strive for, should be the true love of thy God. That is the fruitful, efficacious, and true zeal, which doth wonders in Souls, though with dumb Voices.

16. St. Paul (I Tim. 4.) recommended to us first the care of our own Souls, before that of our Neighbour. Take heed unto thy self, and unto thy Doctrine, said he in his Canonical Epistle. Struggle not to over do, for when it is time convenient, and thou canst be any way useful to thy Neighbour; God will call thee forth, and put thee in the employment that will best suit with thee: That thought belongs only to him, and to thee, to continue in thy rest, disengaged, and wholly resigned up to the Divine will and pleasure. Don’t think that in that condition thou art idle: He is busied enough, who is always ready waiting to perform the Will of God. Who takes heed to himself for God’s sake, does every thing; because, one pure Act of internal Resignation, is more worth than a hundred thousand Exercises for ones own Will.

17. Though the Cistern be capable to contain much Water, yet it must still be without it, till Heaven favour it with Rain. Be at rest, blessed Soul be quiet, humble and resigned, to every thing that God shall be pleased to do with thee, leave the care to God, for he as a Loving Father, knows best what is convenient for thee; conform thy self totally to his Will, perfection being founded in that, inasmuch as he who doeth the will of the Lord, is (Mat. 12.) his Mothers Son, and Brother of the Son of God himself.

18. Think not that God esteemeth him most, that doeth most. He is most beloved who is most humble, most faithful and resigned, and most correspondent to his own Internal Inspiration, and to the Divine will and pleasure.

CHAP. IV.

A Sequel to the Same.

19. Let all thy desires be conform to the Will of that God, who can bring streams of Water out of the dry Rock, who is much displeased with those Souls, which in helping others before the time, defraud themselves, suffer ing themselves to be transported by indiscreet zeal, and vain complacency.

20. As it was with the Servant of Elisha, who (2Kings, c.4.) being sent by the Prophet, that with his Staff he might raise a dead Child; because of the complacency he had, it had not the effect, and he was reproved by Elisha. In like manner the Sacrifice of Cain was rejected, being the first that was offered to God in the World, through the vain-glory he had of being the first, and more than his own Father Adam, in offering Sacrifice to God.

21. In like manner the Disciples of our Lord Christ, were infected with that evil, feeling a vain joy, when they cast out Devils, and therefore were sharply reproved by their Heavenly Master. Before Paul Preached to the Gentiles the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, being already a chosen Vessel, a Citizen of Heaven, and chosen of God for that Ministry, it was necessary to try and humble him, shutting him up in close Prison; and wouldst thou become a Preacher without passing through the Tryal of Men and Devils? And couldst thou thrust thy self into so great a Ministry, and produce Fruit, without passing through the fiery tryal of temptation, tribulation, and passive purgation?

22. It concerns thee more to be quiet and resigned in a holy case, than to do many and great things, by thy own judgment and opinion; think not that the heroick Actions which great Saints have done, and do in the Church, are Works of their own Industry; for all things as well spiritual as temporal, to the shaking of the last Leaf, are by Divine Providence Decreed from all Eternity. He that does the Will of God, does all things; this thy Soul ought to endeavour, resting in a perfect Resignation to whatever the Lord is pleased to dispose of thee; acknowledg thy self unworthy of so high a Ministry, as the guiding of Souls to Heaven, and then thou’lt put no obstacle to the rest, internal peace, and heavenly flight of thy Soul.

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from The Art of Mental Prayer By Reverend Bede Frost

Impatience with others, which in beginners in the spiritual life often excites an indiscreet zeal for their reformation, is fraught with danger to the soul. The only way of reforming others is to begin with ourselves. 'For their sakes I sanctify myself.' Our impatient zeal is often no more than the product of self-love, which is hurt because others do not go our way or come up to our standard.

The Devil, says St. Theresa, works like a file, and one of his wiles is to turn our zeal for perfection into a watch upon others, with the result not only that we become blind to our own shortcomings, but vitiate and harm those who resent our behavior (The Interior Castle, M.I., chap ii, 20, 21).

It would seem almost impossible that we should be impatient with God, yet it is very common. We get tired of walking by faith; 'impatience for vision,' says Coventry Patmore, 'is one of the last faults to be cured'; we complain because our prayers are not answered to the minute, or that our finely woven schemes do not attain their purpose; we lapse into despondency because God acts so slowly, and seems so often to take little notice of our feverish activity, except to reveal its sterility.

No virtue is more necessary both to our interior life and to our exterior activity than patience, and we shall only gain it from much dwelling in the quietness of the 'God of Patience.' 'Rest in the Lord, wait patiently for Him.' 'For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at last it shall speak and not lie; though it tarry, wait for it.' Nature is all for seeing, doing, accomplishing, but 'My ways are not your ways' is one of the first necessary lessons of the spiritual life, and 'he that believeth shall not make haste'; 'they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.' Impatience is ever a shirking of the real thing, a get ting out of tune with the purposes of God, a missing of the beat, which all comes, as says Plotinus, 'from not looking at the Conductor in the midst and keeping time with Him,' for 'He shall keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Thee.'

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From SPIRITUAL MAXIMS by John Nicholas Grou S.J.

NINETEENTH MAXIM

DISCRETION

...And thus it is, too, with many men. They are active, bustling busybodies; meddling in everything under the pretext of serving God; fancying that the Church depends on them. They concern themselves with the affairs of others, and neglect their own. Even some priests are not entirely exempt from these and similar faults. They are zealous, but, as St. Paul says, not according to knowledge. [ ] They allow their natural activity full rein, and because their ministry is spread over many objects insinuate themselves into everything and imagine that all good works must pass through their hands, otherwise they will not succeed. They are for ever coming and going, and the day is not long enough for all they have to do. They even borrow from the night, and leave themselves barely time to say their office.

I am not saying this in a spirit of criticism: nothing is further from my wish. But how can I do otherwise than lament over such an evil as this, which is so harmful to the cause of religion? I am not calling into question the intention: that I well believe to be right and good. Nor do I blame the objects in view, which are also good, since they concern the worship of God and the welfare of men. But how can one rejoice to see the order of duty reversed, and works of supererogation take precedence over duties of obligation? Who can excuse that mistaken piety which looks merely to externals, counts the inner spirit as nothing, and neglects God's primary laws?

The spirit of the inner life follows quite another course, and inspires ideas the very opposite of what I have been describing. It teaches all who yield to its guidance that their first duty is the sanctification of their own souls, and that Christian sanctity consists primarily in the fulfilment of the du ties of one's state. These are indispensable. The very end of devotion is the obtaining of such graces as are necessary for their fulfilment, and it can never, therefore, be a reason for neglecting them. On the contrary, true piety allows such time only for prayer as can lawfully be spared from duties of obligation. In all religious exercises not of strict obligation, it bids us accommodate ourselves to the wishes and frailties of those whom we are bound to consider, and, for the sake of peace, to sacrifice our own tastes, be they never so pious.

The inward spirit also reminds us that we must only undertake good works such as are left to our discretion, in so far as they do not encroach on our spirit of recollection. Should they even begin to make inroads thereon and dissipate us ever so little, we must absolutely give them up, or put them off until another time when we shall not run the same risk. In all such circumstances, it is best not to act on our own but take sound advice before acting, or wait until God sends the occasion. We must also be on our guard against our natural activity and ardour, and all indiscreet zeal which would have us take on far more than we can manage, so that there remains no time for prayer, and for the duties of our state, which are always the first of all good works.

The true interior spirit also teaches those who are charged with the sacred ministry that the care of souls should be limited to spiritual matters, and only extended to temporal things when charity requires it of them, and then with much reserve and circumspection, lest these should prove harmful to themselves or lessen in the minds of others the reverence due to their sacred office.

Such has ever been the mind of the Church from earliest times. The apostles were the first to set an example in this matter by appointing deacons to see to the needs of the poor, reserving to themselves the duty of prayer and the ministry of the word. [ ] In whatever time remains over from the administration of the sacraments, from preaching, the direction of souls, visiting the sick and other similar duties, the primary duty of priests should be prayer, the reading of sacred books and other studies proper to their state. They ought to concern themselves in temporal affairs only in so far as they are a matter of conscience, by pointing out the rules which should be followed so as not to offend against justice or charity, and to maintain or re-establish unity and peace. In the matter of good works or works of mercy, they should, if possible, confine themselves to directing affairs, committing the carrying out of them to those well qualified to do so. Otherwise, apart from losing time, they will lay themselves open to complaints, murmurings, and sometimes unworthy suspicions. The closer they live in intimate union with God, the better will they serve the cause of religion and procure the salvation of souls, the greater authority and consideration will they possess, and their reputation will remain intact and their good name respected.

All this would be taught by the spirit of the interior life, if men sought its guidance with a pure intention. Thus it taught St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Francis of Sales, and every other saint and doctor of the Church throughout the ages, and those most zealous for the greater glory of God and the good of souls.

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I found these excerpts on the Rerum Novarum blog:

But if you have bitter zeal and there be contentions in your heart, glory not and be not liars against the truth: for this is not wisdom descending from above, but earthly, sensual, diabolical. (St. James, Cath. Ep., c. iii vv.14 and 15.)

For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God. (St. James, Cath. Ep., c. i., v. 20.)

1. Zeal for the salvation of souls is a sublime virtue, and yet how many errors and sins are committed daily in its name! Evil is never done more effectually and with greater security, says St. Francis de Sales, than when one does it believing he is working for the glory of God.

2. The saints themselves can be mistaken in this delicate matter. We see a proof of this in the incident related to the Apostles Saint James and Saint John; for Our Lord reprimanded them for asking Him to cause fire from heaven to fall upon the Samaritans. (Luke, IX., 54.)

3. Acts of zeal are like coins the stamp upon which is necessary to examine attentively, as there are more counterfeits than good ones. Zeal to be pure should be accompanied by great humility, for it is of all virtues the one which self-love most easily glides. When it does so, zeal is apt to become imprudent, presumptuous, unjust, bitter. Let us consider these characteristics in detail, viewing them, for the sake of greater clearness, in their practical bearings.

4. In every home there grows some thorn, something, in other words, that needs correction; for the best soil is seldom without its noxious weed. Imprudent zeal, by seeking awkwardly to pluck out the thorn, often succeeds only in plunging it farther in, thus rendering the wound deeper and more painful. In such a case it is essential to act with reflection and great prudence. There is a time to speak and a time to be silent, says the Holy Spirit. (Ecclesiastes III., 7.) Prudent zeal is silent when it realizes that to be so is less hurtful than to speak.

5. Some persons are even presumptuous enough in their mistaken zeal to meddle in the domestic affairs of strange families, blaming, counselling, attempting to reform without measure and discretion, thus causing an evil much greater than the one they wish to correct. Let us employ the activity of our zeal in our own reformation, says Saint Bernard, and pray humbly for that of others. It is great presumption on our part thus to assume the role of apostles when we are not as yet faithful disciples. Not that you should be be by any means indifferent to the salvation to souls: on the contrary you must wish it most ardently, but do not undertake to effect it except with great prudence, humility, and diffidence in self.

6. Again there are pious persons whose zeal consists in wis hing to make everyone adopt their particular practices of devotion. Such a one, if she have a special attraction for meditating on the Passion of our divine Lord or for visiting the Blessed Sacrament, would like to oblige every one, under pain of reprobation, to pass long hours prostrate before the crucifix or the tabernacle. Another who is especially devoted to visiting the poor and the sick and to the other works of corporeal mercy, acknowledges no piety apart from these excellent practices. Now, this is not an enlightened zeal. Martha and Mary were sisters, says Saint Augustine, but they have not a like office: one acts the other contemplates. If both had passed the day in contemplation, no one would have prepared a repast for their divine Master; if both had been employed in this material work, there would have been no one to listen to His words and garner up His divine lessons. The same may be said of other good works. In choosing among them each person should follow the inspirations of God's grace, and these are very varied. The eye that sees but hears not, must neither envy nor blame the ear that hears but sees not. Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum: let every spirit praise the Lord, says the royal prophet. (Ps. CL, 5.)

7. Bear well in mind that the zeal which would lead you to undertake works not in conformity with your position, however good and useful they may be in themselves, is always a false one. This is especially true if such cause us interior trouble or annoyance; for the holiest things are infallibly displeasing to God when they do not accord with the duties of our state in life.

8. Saint Paul condemned in strong terms those Christians who showed a too exclusive preference for their spiritual masters; some admitting as truth only what came from the mouth of Peter, others acknowledging none save Paul, and others again none but Apollo. What! said he to them, is not Jesus Christ the same for all of you! Is it then Paul who was crucified for you? Is it in his name that you were baptized? (St. Paul, i Cor. i., 13.) This culpable weakness is often reproduced in our day. Persons otherwise pious carry to excess the esteem and affection they have for their spiritual directors, exalt without measure their wisdom and holiness, and do not scruple to deprecate all others. God alone knows the true value of each human being, and we have not the scales of the sanctuary to weigh and compare the respective wisdom and sanctity of this or that person. If you have a good confessor, thank God and try to render his wisdom useful to you by your docility in allowing yourself to be guided; but do not assume that nobody else has as good a one. To deprecate the merits of some in order to exalt those of others at their expense is a sort of slander, that ought to be all the more feared because it is generally so little recognized. [Fr. R.P. Quadrupani: Light and Peace - Instructions for Devout Souls to Dispel Their Doubts and Allay Their Fears pgs. 153-158 (c. 1795)]

9. "If your zeal is bitter", says St. James, "it is not wisdom descending from on high, but earthly, sensual, diabolical". (James III, 14-15.) These words of an Apostle should furnish matter of reflection for those persons who, whilst making profession of piety, are so prone to irritability, so harsh and rude in their manner and language, that they might be taken for angels in church and for demons elsewhere.

10. The value and utility of zeal are in proportion to its tolerance and amiability. True zeal is the offspring of charity; it should then, resemble its mother and show itself like to her in all things. "Charity", says St. Paul, "is patient, is kind, is not ambitious, and seeks not her own." (1 Cor. XIII, 4-5.)

You should not only be devout and love devotion, but you ought to make your piety useful, agreeable, and charming to everybody. The sick will like your spirituality if they are lovingly consoled by it; your family, if they find that it makes you more thoughtful of their welfare, gentler in everyday affairs, more amiable in reproving, and so on; your husband, if he sees that in proportion as your devotion increases you become more cordial and tender in your affection for him; your relations and your friends, if they find you more forebearing and ready to comply with their wishes, should these not be contrary to God's will. Briefly, you must try as far as possible to make your devotion attractive to others; that is true zeal". - St. Francis de Sales.

11. Never allow your zeal to make you overeager to correct others, says the same Saint; and when you do it remember that the most important thing to consider is the choice of the moment. A caution deferred can be given another time: one given inopportunely is not only fruitless, but moreover paralyzes beforehand all the good that might have have subsequently been done.

12. Be zealous therefore, ardently zealous for the salvation of your neighbour, and to further make use of whatever means God has placed in your power; but do not exceed these limits nor disquiet yourself about the good you are unable to do, for God can accomplish it through others. In conclusion, zeal according to the teaching of the Fathers of the Church, should always have truth for its foundation, indulgence for its companion, mildness for its guide, prudence for its counsellor and director.

"I must look upon whatever presents itself each day to be done, in order that Divine Providence, as the work God wishes me to do, and apply myself in a manner worthy of Him, that is, with exactness and tranquillity. I shall neglect nothing, be anxious about nothing; as it is dangerous to do God's work negligently or to appropriate it to one's self through self-love and false zeal. When our actions are prompted by our inclinations,we do them badly and are pretentious, restless, and anxious to succeed. The glory of God is the pretext that hides the illusion. Self-love disguised as zeal grieves and frets if it cannot succeed. Oh my God! give me the grace to be faithful in action, indifferent to success. My part is to will what Thou willest and to keep myself recollected in Thee amidst all my occupations: Thine is to give to my feeble efforts such fruit as shall please Thee - none if Thou so wishest." - Fenelon. [Fr. R. P. Quadrupini: excerpts from his spiritual instruction "Light and Peace - Instructions for Devout Souls" pgs. 158-161 (c. 1795)]

Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled by many things. (St. Luke, c. x, v. 41.) Always active, always at rest. (St. Augustine.) Be on your guard lest your zeal degenerate into anxiety and eagerness. St. Francis de Sal es was a most pronounced enemy of these two defects. They cause us to lose sight of God in our actions and make us very prone to impatience if the slightest obstacle should interfere with our designs. It is only by acting peacefully that we can serve the God of peace in an acceptable manner.

"Do not suffer our peace to be disturbed by precipitation in our exterior actions. When our bodies or our minds are engaged in any work, we should perform it peacefully and with composure, not prescribing for ourselves a definite time to finish it, nor being too anxious to see it completed." - Scrupoli

Martha was engaged in a good work when she prepared a respite for our divine Lord, nevertheless He reproved her because she performed it with anxiety and agitation. This goes to show, says St. Francis de Sales, that it is not enough to do good, the good must moreover be done well, that is to say, with love and tranquility. If one turns the spinning-wheel too rapidly it falls and the thread breaks.

Whenever we are doing well we are always doing enough and doing it sufficiently fast. Those persons who are restless and impetuous do not accomplish any more and what they do is done badly.

St. Francis de Sales was never seen in a hurry no matter how varied or numerous might be the demands on his time. When on a certain occasion some surprise was expressed at this he said: "You ask me how it is that although others are agitated and flurried I am not likewise uneasy and in haste. What would you? I was not put in this world to cause fresh disturbance: is there not enough of it already without my adding to it by my exciteability?"

However, do not on the other hand succumb to sloth and indifference. All extremes are to be avoided. Cultivate a tranquil activity and an active tranquillity.

In order to acquire tranquillity in action it is necessary to consider carefully what we are able to accomplish and never to undertake more then that. It is self-love, ever more anxious to do much than is to do well, which urges us on to burden ourselves with great undertakings and to impose upon ourselves numerous obligations. It maintains and nourishes itself on this tension of mind, this restless anxiety which it takes for infallible signs of a superior capacity. Thus St. Francis de Sales was wont to say: "Our self-love is a great braggart, that wishes to undertake everything and accomplishes nothing".

"It appears to me that you are over eager and anxious in the pursuit of perfection...Now I tell you truthfully, as it is said in the Book of Kings [III Kings, C. XIX], that God is not in the great and strong wind, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire, but in the gentle movement of an almost imperceptable breeze.....Anxiety and agitation contribute nothing towards success. The desire of success is good, but only if it be accompanied by solicitude. I expressly forbid you to give way to inquietude, for it is the mother of all imperfections.....Peace is necessary in all things and everywhere. If any trouble come to us, either of an interior or exterior nature, we should receive it peacefully: if joy be ours, it should be received peacefully: have we to flee from evil, we should do it peacefully, otherwise we may fall in our flight and thus give our enemy a chance to kill us. Is there a good work to be done? We must do it peacefully, or else we shall commit many faults by our hastiness: and even regards penance, - that too must be done peacefully: Behold, said the prophet, in peace is my bitterness most bitter. (Isaiah.) [Fr. R.P. Quadrupani: Light and Peace - Instructions for Devout Souls to Dispel Their Doubts and Allay Their Fears pgs. 112-115 (c. 1795)]

_____

"How often we wish that God would show himself stronger, that he would strike decisively, defeating evil and creating a better world. All ideologies of power justify themselves in exa ctly this way, they justify the destruction of whatever would stand in the way of progress and the liberation of humanity.

We suffer on account of God’s patience. And yet,we need his patience.

God, who became a lamb, tells us that the world is saved by the Crucified One, not by those who crucified him. The world is redeemed by the patience of God. It is destroyed by the impatience of man."

--From the Homily of the Inauguration Mass of Pope Benedict XVI, 24 April 2005.

_____

True zeal consists in doing the duties of our state in life:

Providence, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange summarizes Self-Abandonment To Providence (emphasis added):

Why we should abandon ourselves to divine providence

The answer of every Christian will be that the reason lies in the wisdom and goodness of Providence. This is very true; nevertheless, if we are to have a proper understanding of the subject, if we are to avoid the error of the Quietists in renouncing more or less the virtue of hope and the struggle necessary for salvation, if we are to avoid also the other extreme of disquiet, precipitation, and a feverish, fruitless agitation, it is expedient for us to lay down four principles already somewhat accessible to natural reason and clearly set forth in revelation as found in Scripture. These principles underlying the true doctrine of self-abandonment, also bring out the motive inspiring it.

...

These first three principle s may therefore be summed up in this way: Nothing comes to pass but God has foreseen it, willed it or at least permitted it. He wills nothing, permits nothing, unless for the manifestation of His goodness and infinite perfections, for the glory of His Son, and the welfare of those that love Him. In view of these three principles, it is evident that our trust in Providence cannot be too childlike, too steadfast. Indeed, we may go further and say that this trust in Providence should be blind as is our faith, the object of which is those mysteries that are non-evident and unseen (fides est de non visis) for we are certain beforehand that Providence is directing all things infallibly to a good purpose, and we are more convinced of the rectitude of His designs than we are of the best of our own intentions. Therefore, in abandoning ourselves to God, all we have to fear is that our submission will not be wholehearted enough. [54]

In view of Quietism, however, this last sentence obliges us to lay down a fourth principle no less certain than the principles that have preceded. The principle is, that obviously self-abandonment does not dispense us from doing everything in our power to fulfil God's will as made known in the commandments and counsels, and in the events of life; but so long as we have the sincere desire to carry out His will thus made known from day to day, we can and indeed we must abandon ourselves for the rest to the divine will of good pleasure, no matter how mysterious it may be, and thus avoid a useless disquiet and mere agitation. [55]

...All theologians explain what is meant by the divine will as expressed: expressed, that is, in the commandments, in the spirit underlying the counsels, and in the events of life. [56] They add that, while conforming ourselves to His expressed will, [57] we must abandon ourselves to His divine will of good pleasure, however mysterious it may be, for we are certain beforehand that in its holiness it wills nothing, permits nothing, unless for a good purpose.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: catholic; inman; mormon; protestant; religion
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To: xzins; Buggman
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Again I aver the only unity that matters is God's doing:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5

Without Him, we can do nothing.

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

1,261 posted on 07/08/2010 11:21:18 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: svcw
Isn’t there a quote somewhere that says “when the prophet speaks the thinking has been done”?

And there are many in this thread that think:

"When the POPE speaks the thinking has been done”.

1,262 posted on 07/08/2010 11:22:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

No, unanimity. Show me ANY Christian writer for the first 500 years of Christianity that agrees with your interpretation of scripture regarding Peter, please. Your interpretations are those of the protestant revolt and have nothing whatsoever to do with historical Christianity.


1,263 posted on 07/08/2010 11:24:58 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Buggman
But there will also always be a Spirit that binds us together. If someone is in Yeshua and has received His Spirit, that person and I are brethren--whether we agree or not, whether we like each other or not.

That is Biblical unity.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights and testimony, dear brother in Christ!

1,264 posted on 07/08/2010 11:27:25 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Elsie
You have enough to do by going after the REAL heretics

ROFL!!!!!

Meanwhile, there's a whole bunch of your fellow protestants who seem to spend all their time going after the REAL heretics: ROMANISTS!

I see that your polemic fails to mention them.

Oh, well ...

1,265 posted on 07/08/2010 11:29:34 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Buggman; xzins; Alamo-Girl; caww; betty boop; P-Marlowe

This IS NOT an attempt to derail anything or to start a new debate, it’s just an honest question.

Earlier xzins pointed out the belief held by many Christians, myself included, that Christianity is limited to those who subscribe to Trinitarian dogma. I know that many Messianic Jews do hold Trinitarian beliefs, but not all. Are you among those who do believe in the Holy Trinity or those who don’t?


1,266 posted on 07/08/2010 11:29:49 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Protestantism does not take that assertion seriously.

OF COURSE not!

JESUS' 'body' was actually HOLDING ON TO THE bread when He said that!


Paul (remember him? a SAINT I believe) said that YOU are the body of CHRIST.

Are we now to be CANNIBLES?

ALL Hebrew festivals and ordinances pointed to the Christ to come.

They ate the PASSOVER every year, and the SYMBOLISM in the food pointed to the One to come.

John said, "BEHOLD; the LAMB of GOD...."

Jews KNEW what he was talking about.

1,267 posted on 07/08/2010 11:30:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Buggman
Nicely put.

I've basically come to reconcile myself with the fact that there are very few simple, easy answers. I really don't think we're meant to have 100% clarity and unity in this life.

On that score, I think this speaks to the fact that there are certain mysteries about Christianity -- things we just to accept that we can't know. A lot of folks are very uncomfortable with mystery, me included.

Because we don't like mysteries, we attempt to explain them on our own ... and everybody can come up with their own explanation. Of course there's going to be conflict when competing explanations show up in the same room.

I think if you dig into a lot theological controversies, you'll find a mystery at the bottom of the dispute.

Just to name one such mystery: the nature and mechanism of salvation.

1,268 posted on 07/08/2010 11:31:08 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Elsie
And there are many in this thread that think: "When the POPE speaks the thinking has been done”.

Are there? Perhaps you can identify them by name.

1,269 posted on 07/08/2010 11:31:41 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Elsie
And there are many in this thread that think: "When the POPE speaks the thinking has been done”.

Are there? Perhaps you can identify them by name.

1,270 posted on 07/08/2010 11:31:50 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Elsie
 
 
 

How about a sample??
 




Added stuff...                                                                                                    Changed stuff...                        Rearranged stuff...                                                                    Removed stuff...

JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW
An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24.
Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked.
 
  1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God.
  2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate.
  3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down.
  4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world?
  5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you;
  6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many;
  7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake;
  8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another;
  9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many;
  10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold;
  11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved.
  12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand.
  13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains;
  14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house;
  15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes;
  16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days;
  17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day;
  18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel.
  19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them.
  20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened.
  21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not;
  22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.
  23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet.
  24 Behold, I have told you before;
  25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not;
  26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
  27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.
  28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars.
  29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
  30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved.
  31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked;
  32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled.
  33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
  34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled.
  35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled.
  36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory;
  37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
  38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand;
  39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors;
  40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.
  41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man;
  42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage;
  43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
  44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft;
  45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;
  46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come.
  47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready.
  48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.
  49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
  50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
  51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming,
  52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken,
  53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
  54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth.
  55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39  24:1-51
 
 
 
 
 
 39.  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
 

 1.  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
 2.  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
 3.  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
 4.  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
 5.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
 6.  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 7.  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
 8.  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
 9.  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
 10.  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
 11.  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
 12.  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
 13.  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 14.  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 15.  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
 16.  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
 17.  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
 18.  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
 19.  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
 20.  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
 21.  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22.  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 23.  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
 24.  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 25.  Behold, I have told you before.
 26.  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
 27.  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 28.  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
 29.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 30.  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 31.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 32.  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
 33.  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
 34.  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
 36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
 37.  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
 41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
 42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
 43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
 44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
 45.  Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
 46.  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
 47.  Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
 48.  But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
 49.  And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
 50.  The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
  51.  And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
 
 
 
King James Version of the Holy Bible
Public domain
 
 

1,271 posted on 07/08/2010 11:31:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reno232
...perhaps you can share the exact quotes from the leaders of the church where they have "taught" this doctrine...

Your wish is our command!!

1,272 posted on 07/08/2010 11:33:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

He doesn't lie.

Ever.

Protestant rationalization cannot change that.

God bless you.

1,273 posted on 07/08/2010 11:34:09 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Reno232; Godzilla; reaganaut

BTW, just noticed the reply was to you Godzilla not to Reaganaut for whom it was also intended. Although both of you should be enlightened. Sorry for the confusion


1,274 posted on 07/08/2010 11:34:34 AM PDT by Reno232
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Show me ANY Christian writer for the first 500 years of Christianity...

Now there IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD!

1,275 posted on 07/08/2010 11:36:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut

Please refer to my post 1248 as an answer to your post.


1,276 posted on 07/08/2010 11:40:52 AM PDT by Reno232
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
 Show me ANY Christian writer for the first 500 years of Christianity that agrees with your interpretation of scripture regarding Peter, please.

NIV Matthew 2:5
 "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
 1.  Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
 2.  After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
 3.  The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
 4.  Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
 5.  Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
 6.  "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
 7.  Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
 8.  Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 
 9.  "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
 10.  Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
 11.  Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
 

NIV Matthew 11:10
    This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'
 

NIV Matthew 21:13
    "It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,'  but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "
 

NIV Matthew 26:24
    The Son of Man will go just as it is writtenabout him.
 

NIV Matthew 26:31
   Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' 
 

NIV Mark 7:6-7
 6.  He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
 7.  They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
 

NIV Mark 9:11-13
 11.  And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
 12.  Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it writtenthat the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
 13.  But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."
 

NIV Mark 11:17
    And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "
 

NIV Mark 14:27
    "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'
 

NIV Luke 1:1-4
 1.  Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled  among us,
 2.  just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
 3.  Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 
 4.  so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
 

NIV Luke 4:17-19
 17.  The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
 18.  "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
 19.  to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
 

NIV Luke 7:27
    This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'
 

NIV Luke 10:26
    "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
 

NIV Luke 18:31-33
 31.  Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is writtenby the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
 32.  He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
 33.  On the third day he will rise again."
 

NIV Luke 20:17-18
 17.  Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
 18.  Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
 

NIV Luke 21:22
    For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
 

NIV Luke 22:37
    It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is writtenabout me is reaching its fulfillment."
 

NIV Luke 24:44-47
 44.  He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is writtenabout me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
 45.  Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
 46.  He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
 47.  and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
 

NIV John 2:17
    His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
   Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "
 

NIV John 6:45
   It is writtenin the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.'  Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
 

NIV John 12:14-15
 14.  Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
 15.  "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
 

NIV John 12:14-16
 14.  Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
 15.  "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
 16.  At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.
 

NIV John 15:25
   But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
 

NIV John 20:30-31
 30.  Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
 31.  But these are written that you may  believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
 

NIV Acts 1:20
   "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'
 

NIV Acts 7:42
   But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?
 

NIV Acts 13:29
   When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.
 

NIV Acts 13:32-33
 32.  "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
 33.  he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '
 

NIV Acts 15:15-18
 15.  The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
 16.  "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
 17.  that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
 18.  that have been known for ages.
 

NIV Acts 23:5
    Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for  it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "
 

NIV Acts 24:14
   However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
    and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 
 

NIV Romans 1:17
   For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,  just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
 

NIV Romans 2:24
   As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
 

NIV Romans 3:4
    Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."
 

NIV Romans 3:10-12
 10.  As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 
 11.  there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
 12.  All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
 

NIV Romans 4:17
    As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."  He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
 

NIV Romans 4:23-24
 23.  The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
 24.  but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
 

NIV Romans 8:36
   As  it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
 

NIV Romans 9:13
   Just as  it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
 

NIV Romans 9:33
    As  it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 

NIV Romans 10:15
    And how can they preach unless they are sent? As  it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
 

NIV Romans 11:7-10
 7.  What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
 8.  as  it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
 9.  And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 10.  May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
 

NIV Romans 11:26-27
 26.  And so all Israel will be saved, as  it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 27.  And this is  my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
 

NIV Romans 12:19
  Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for  it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"  says the Lord.
 

NIV Romans 14:11
   It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
 

NIV Romans 15:3-4
 3.  For even Christ did not please himself but, as  it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
 4.  For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 

NIV Romans 15:7-12
 7.  Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
 8.  For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews  on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
 9.  so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as  it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
 10.  Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
 11.  And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
 12.  And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."
 

NIV Romans 15:21
    Rather, as  it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand." 
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
    For  it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
   Therefore, as  it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
   However, as  it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
 19.  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As  it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
 20.  and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
   Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
   For  it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."  Is it about oxen that God is concerned?
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
   Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as  it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
   These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
   In the Law  it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
   So  it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
   When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written  will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
 

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
 13.  For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
 14.  as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
 13.  it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."  With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
 14.  because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.
 

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
   as  it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."
 

NIV 2 Corinthians 9:9
 

NIV Galatians 3:10
   All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for  it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
 

NIV Galatians 3:13
   Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for  it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
 

NIV Galatians 4:22
  For  it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
 

NIV Galatians 4:27
   For  it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."
 

NIV Hebrews 10:7
   Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
 

NIV 1 Peter 1:16
   for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
 

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
   He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
 12.   I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
 13.   I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one.  I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
 14.   I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
 



 
 "Do not go beyond what is written."
 Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

1,277 posted on 07/08/2010 11:44:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Buggman; wagglebee; P-Marlowe; Kolokotronis; Dr. Brian Kopp; betty boop

And one aspect of the unity that matters is that it’s visible to “the world”.

Wagglebee and other Catholics and Orthodox have proven themselves my brothers and sisters. They’ve proven themselves trinitarian, believers in the incarnation, and believers in the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus.

They have very precise explanations of things I find difficult: about Mary, about icons, about shepherds in the church, and about the treatment of scripture. While I disagree with them, I see a passion to fit into legacy of historic, biblical Christianity.

I treasure their stand on life, their sense of world-wide organization, and their unity of purpose. We could learn a lot.

Likewise, I am a Messianic.

I hate to violate the Sabbath, I long to apply the meaning of the festivals, I wonder at the positives in listening to the Lord’s guidance regarding eating and cleanliness. I love the love of scripture.

And I am a Baptist.

Sadly, I cannot be any denomination from which the Lord has removed or is removing the candlestick. They are no longer lights set on a stand that give light to the entire room. (Sadly, because my own denomination is being weighed in the balance and appears to be wanting.)


1,278 posted on 07/08/2010 11:45:07 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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5000


1,279 posted on 07/08/2010 11:46:36 AM PDT by svcw (True freedom cannot be granted by any man or government, only by Christ.)
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To: xzins
(Sadly, because my own denomination is being weighed in the balance and appears to be wanting.)

??? I had not thought of Baptists as being among those who were drifting into apostasy.

1,280 posted on 07/08/2010 11:48:30 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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