How did Jacob see *GOD* Face to Face? Genesis 32:30

Vanity | July 5th, 2010 | TaraP

[Zionist Conspirator]

Why was I pinged to this?

Jacob wrestled with `Esav's angel.

[Iscool]

פּנים

vayikra Ya'akov shem hamakom p'niel ki-raiti ekohim panyim el-panyim vatinatzel nafshi

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived/saw/sensed Ekohim sides to sides and rescued/preserved my soul.

The sentence as you post it makes no sense...

And called Jacob name the place sides of Ek because I perceived Ekohim sides to sides and rescued my soul...

That's what it really says, eh???

pânı̂ym
paw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.): - + accept, a (be-) fore (-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront (-part), form (-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him (-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look [-eth] (-s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, prospect, was purposed, by reason, of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them (-selves), through (+ -out), till, time (-s) past, (un-) to (-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with (-in, + stand), X ye, X you.

With this translation of the word for 'face', sides doesn't occur one single time...And then I see in your reconstruction of the Hebrew, to was added to the second face instead of having it's own definition while the original Masoretic text has them separate...

Well, it isn't "my" Hebrew source. It is from the Mesorah - where 95% of all Bibles get their Hebrew Scriptures, but here you go, transliterated in a literal, mechanical translation:

The KJV translators had the same access to the Masorah as you do but decided to stick with the written Hebrew instead of the Masorah...I suspect many others did as well since I don't recollect seeing 'sides to sides' in the verse in other translations...

Without looking, I'd bet that the Douay Rheims says 'face to face' and not, sides to sides...I'd bet that most translations say face to face...

I'll stick with 'face to face'...The man in the verse is clearly the Angel of the Lord, which is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ...

And if you've seen the Angel of the Lord, you've seen the face of God...

[jjotto]

On the suject of mesorah: It teaches that the angel Jacob wrestled with was the guardian angel of Esau.

[TaraP]

I wanted to share this beautiful short video with you, and ask if anyone knows if this is in Aramaic, Hebrew,Greek? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUXM10Vj0P4 Avvon d-bish-maiya, nith-qaddash shim-mukh. Tih-teh mal-chootukh. Nih-weh çiw-yanukh: ei-chana d'bish-maiya: ap b'ar-ah. Haw lan lakh-ma d'soonqa-nan yoo-mana. O'shwooq lan kho-bein: ei-chana d'ap kh'nan shwiq-qan l'khaya-ween. Oo'la te-ellan l'niss-yoona: il-la paç-çan min beesha. Mid-til de-di-lukh hai mal-choota oo khai-la oo tush-bookh-ta l'alam al-mein. Aa-meen.

[TaraP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUXM10Vj0P4

[xzins]

He saw the preincarnate 2nd person of the Trinity as did Daniel.

[Tzfat]

That's what it really says, eh

Yes. Do you speak any language other than English? Surely you know what a mechanical translation is, right? What I wrote is what it LITERALLY says. Period.

With this translation of the word for 'face', sides doesn't occur one single time

All that means is that at no time did the translators every translate the word as "sides" but when you look at the shoresh, the root, that is precisely what it means. Remember, the debate here is what the word "panyim" LITERALLY is, not what it is translated as. LITERALLY it is "sides."


The KJV translators had the same access to the Masorah as you do but decided to stick with the written Hebrew instead of the Masorah

When I say "Mesorah" I am referring to what is called the "Masoretic text" - the one the KJV translators used. But, in case you don't know the KJV translators were exceptionally good with scribal notes that are present in the Mesorah's margins. It case you still misunderstand: I USED THE SAME HEBREW TEXT AS THE KJV TRANSLATORS. The same translators that translated 1John 4:12 as "No man hath seen G-d at any time."

I'd bet that most translations say face to face...

You are correct, and that may be an acceptible translation. However, as I have tried to show on this thread, you CANNOT say emphatically that the text "literally says, 'face to face'" - because it DOES NOT. It LITERALLY says, "sides to sides." Period.

When people draw theological conclusions from the text, that is fine. What is not fine is to discount alternate conclusions that the text does not rule out. Theology should be informed by the text, but most often it is informed by the tradition of how the text is read. That makes the tradition different from the literal text - which should give us all pause before we start accusing others of "blasphemy" for having a different tradition. Let the text speak for itself. You or I are free to assume that the "man" being wrestled is a "preincarnate Jesus Christ" but the text does not SAY that - so being dogmatic about it is not only immature, it is unscholarly. Claiming the text LITERALLY says what we read in English is short-sighted if there are those that can read the original language present.

Love demands that where there are differences of tradition, we permit what the text permits. The text of Genesis 32:30 (32:31 in Hebrew) permits those who do not agree with the idea of a "preincarnate Jesus Christ" to have a firm footing. At least as firm as yours or mine.

[Tzfat]

It is Aramaic. I don’t speak Aramaic, but this sounds like an odd translation (or rather one done with an academic knowledge, as opposed to speaking). There are no “w” sounds in Hebrew or Aramaic. Modern lexicons refer to a “w” but the sound of a vav in Aramaic and Hebrew is a “v” sound. The reason why I know is that some of the liturgical prayers we pray are in Aramaic (it is close to Hebrew in many instances).

[Just mythoughts]

On the suject of mesorah: It teaches that the angel Jacob wrestled with was the guardian angel of Esau.

This is the first time I have heard this. Would you please 'show' me how this can be? Why would Esau have/need a guardian angel? Esau as written was NOT exactly the Heavenly Father's favorite even before having been born in a flesh body.

[TaraP]

Okay Thanks!

I think it’s a beautiful prayer and language!

[jjotto]

http://www.jewishpath.org/a_parsha/bereishis/did_yaakov_wrestle_with_the_ang.html

[numberonepal]

I just wonder what the following means: "And God said, 'Let us make [a] man in our image [likeness] [who looks like us]'."

Annanunaki

[numberonepal]

BTW, my take on the Trinity is "three Persons in One." I don't pretend to comprehend it.

Think of it terms of omnipotence. Ashes to ashes - dust to dust. The part is in the whole - the whole is in the part. "I am the Alpha and the Omega". These are all references to a holographic universe. Every thing that has been, is, and will be has already been determined.

[Just mythoughts]

Thank you for the link.

Paul, of the tribe of Benjamin and from Jacob according to the lineage, writes regarding Jacob and Esau before either were born having done good or evil, that the Heavenly Father loved Jacob and hated Esau. (Romans 9:11——) Paul was a well trained Hebrew scholar and quoted what was penned by Malachi the prophet. (Malachi 1:2——) Neither of these that followed up on Jacob and Esau seem inclined to hint the wrestling was done between Esau's guardian angel and Jacob.

Now obviously Jacob before the wrestling was thinking in terms of his own and kindreds physical safety, and probably with good reason when he would come into contact with Esau on his return to his country.

So Jacob which means contender, sent a ‘peace’ offering to his brother and then while alone. Hosea 12 gives the student more insight to what precedent was set in Jacob the contender to Israel which means “God commands, orders or rules” .....

I see/read nothing that suggests that the Man “Angel” that Jacob contended with and prevailed has anything to do with it being Esau's guardian angel. Maybe Jacob needed reassurance that the birthright Esau sold him for a ‘red’ bowl of pottage, and the blessing he was given was intended given the help of his mother was FOR REAL....

Genesis 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, “The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.”

And once again Rebekah was told and she sent Jacob away for his safety.

I think this notion of it being Esau's guardian angel that contended with Jacob and then changed Jacob's name to Israel is more than mixed up given the whole story.

[jjotto]

‘The Mesorah’ is the explanation for the text that Moses transmitted from God to succeeding generations.

Someone reading the texts from Harvard Law without attending lectures and doing homework doesn’t have the whole story.

[Guyin4Os]

No, it literally means "sides of G-d." there is no Hebrew word for "face." Even if we translate "panyim" as "face" it is plural, so "faces."

It may mean "side" in modern Israeli Hebrew, but in ancient Hebrew, "pani" means "face" or "surface." For example, in Gen 1:2b it says "...v'Ruach Elohim m'rachepheth al pinay tehom" or "and the Spirit of God hovered above the SURFACE or FACE of the deep." It does not say the Spirit of God hovered over the SIDE of the deep. That would not make any sense at all.

It is true that Hebrew does not speak of a personal "face" in the singular form. It is always "paniym," or "faces." However, since G-d is the same yesterday, today and forever, He does not have many faces like humans have. Therefore, it is fully appropriate to speak of God's face as singular.

[Guyin4Os]

"...v'Ruach Elohim m'rachepheth al pinay tehom"

I made an error in saying that "pinay" is singular. It is the plural construct form. So even when used of G-d, it is in the plural... "faces." I apologize for any inconvenience my error may have caused.

[Nosterrex]

First of all, Peniel, is Hebrew for “Face of God.” It is composed of two words joined together, Peni and El. El is the Hebrew word for “God” , and “Peni” , means face of. It has nothing to do with our anatomy. There are many words in one language that may sound similar to words in another language but have completely different references. The question of how did Jacob see God is most interesting and much debated. The Scriptures tell us that no man has seen God expect the Son of God. Even Jesus tells us that only the Son has seen the Father. So how do we explain this contradiction? Traditionally, from the time of early Christianity, this event was seen as an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ or theophany. Whether or not Jacob wrestled with Christ in a vision or dream, which is often how God appears to men, or whether or not it was a physical event, I cannot be certain. The Hebrews often used the term, “face” in metaphorical ways, to mean a gracious presence. Considering that God is a Spirit with no human features, God would not have a human face. The human characteristics of God are known as anthropomorphisms.

[Tzfat]

I don’t speak modern Israeli Hebrew. Panyim is only idiomatically “faces.” That is not what it means literally. By all means continue in your argument without me.

[Just mythoughts]

‘The Mesorah’ is the explanation for the text that Moses transmitted from God to succeeding generations. Someone reading the texts from Harvard Law without attending lectures and doing homework doesn’t have the whole story.

The Massorah is called "A Fence to the Scriptures," because it locked all words and letters in their places. It does not contain notes or comments as such, but facts and phenomena. It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, &...... APPENDIX 30 of the Companion Bible. The Text was 'fixed' before the Massorites 'fenced the Scriptures' The Text was set in order after the return from Babylon and is described in Neh. 8:8 as well as Ezra 7:6-11. Now we Christians do not always get the full detailed locked in message from the fixed text from the Hebrew. (Or even from the Greek and there have been busy fingers making the Word say and mean things it never meant.)